From what I remember about that situation, both Karla Faye and the people she killed were into drugs and that lifestyle. Although I don't know their hearts, it is possible that the two people she killed were not believers. If so, that means Karla Faye is going to heaven while the people she killed are going to hell.

From an earthly point of view, that doesn't seem fair. But that's why the previous devotion, "It all comes back to Jesus" is so important. Only one way to get there.

In fact, Psalm 51 is David's great song of repentance. It is in reponse to his confrontation by God through Nathan.

Indeed, David suffered the conseqences. The child that was born of his adultery with Bathsheba died. Another son tried to depose him and drove him into the wildernes.

The broken and contrite heart is the key to this prayer of repentence. It is probably the greatest of the Psalms, right up there with 23.

As I asked the other day, are we guilty of preaching a "cheap grace", without the need for deep heartfelt repentence? This Psalm is all about real repentence.

God bless,

Some people who committed the sin of rejecting Jesus don't get punished on earth but do suffer eternal consequences down in hell. This is the reverse of the case illustrated in today's devotion....

hmmmm... Quiet without JCO today.... May God be with him...

God's grace is so perfect because it does not depend upon what we do, but what Jesus Christ has done through His atonement on the cross. When we come to Christ the workmanship he has ordained before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10) is being matured in our sanctification process (Romans 8:29). There is no ordinal scale of sin. Lying is just as severe in the eyes of God as murder. We will indeed reap the earthly consequences of sin whether it be before or after conversion. But God will give us the sufficient grace to live and endure those consequences. We will also develop discernment and the fruit of the Spirit as we are changed from glory to glory by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18). The life of a Christian is not an easy life, but we do walk with the Lord and then when our ministries are completed, we GO HOME!
May God give you all complete joy today as you behold His glory in a deeper way.

Grant, No we are not preaching a cheap grace or gospel. Paul said in Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek." I understand exactally what you are saying, the problem doesn't lie in the grace but it lies in the deliverance by the preacher and the obediance of the hearer. We are comforming to the world and we are comprimising with sin. Lets face it we are living in the time that the writer wrote about when he said that there will come a time when man will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. We as preachers need to quit worring if we are pleasing our congregations or not, we need to worry, are we pleasing God. I agree with you it seem that we are giving out a watered down plan of grace and everything is okay to do as long as we do it in moderation, type attitude. Thanks for your insight. As the devotion says we can be forgiven but still we have to reap the results of our sins and action. We can stand on the higest building around and shake a feather pillar into the wind, when all the feathers land we can pick up all that we see but we can be sure we will not get all of them, this is the same way with our sins there will allways be someone out there that remembers our sin, even though we have been forgiven, yet they will not forget them. I will have to continually pay for some things I have done in my past, I just thank God he has forgiven me. God bless everyone and have a good day.

Some who are against capital punishment will use a similar argument saying we should forgive because that's what Jesus would do. Mother Theresa appealed to the Governor of California with this argument when Robert Alton Harris was facing the gas chamber in California. She said Jesus would forgive him, so he should not be put to death. This argument does not hold up, though. What should we do then with murderers or other criminals. Should they spend life in prison. No, Jesus would forgive them. Even one day in prison would be too much, because Jesus would forgive them, and so should we. Obviously, society cannot work that way. Jesus respected governmental authority, which is clear in his answer about taxes in Matthew 22. Paul in Romans 13 made it clear that government is established by God to punish those who do wrong. The fact that Jesus would forgive, or the family of the victim for that matter, is irrelevant to whether the government should forgive. There are consequences for sin, but those who turn to God and repent, no matter what they have done, can take comfort that in the end, they are truly forgiven.

"Thou shall not Kill" Ricky. (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17).

See, suggesting that a heinous murderer goes to heaven, and a good non-Christian believer like me goes to Hell, is one of many big problems I have with Christianity.

I have always been a bit confused by the words in Psalm 51:4 where David says he has sinned against God alone or only God depending on the translation. I happened to have a copy of the newer translation, the NET Bible, near the computer and it uses the wording, "Against you----you above all----I have sinned; I have done what is evil in your sight. So you are just when you confront me, you are right when you condemn me." If you are interested to see the translation study notes you can go to www.bible.org. I thought this might be helpful to anyone else who might have been confused, too.

That is the beautiful thing about Christianity is that God's gift of forgiveness & salvation is available to all as long as we TRULY repent & accept Christ not only as Savior, but also the Lord of our lives. God will usually not take away the consequences of our sins in this life though, so if a person kills someone they still have to face the punishment. It is debateable whether that should be life imprisonment or death, but sometimes in this imperfect world the lesser of two evils might be death so that the perpetrator can harm no others. Just my opinion. God bless

JCO, How good is good enough to not deserve hell? Each of us on our own would have our own standards according to our own perceived level of sinfulness and whether or not we felt like our sins were forgivable to ourselves or whether they were overboard. To me it is great to know that to God sin is sin and we all deserve spiritual death for our sin but He has made a way, the Way, for each of us to rise out of the mire of sin when the blood of Jesus washes over us and frees us from that sin and guilt that wants to stick to us like super glue. You see yourself through your own human eyes and you are generous in forgiving yourself but perhaps you are too generous. You are not seeing with the eyes of God. He says, "No way out unless you go My Way!" I know it is hard to give up control over your life to Someone who is bigger than you are. But that is what it takes. It is a really big step, a leap even, over the unknown to go with God. I pray you will understand soon.

Jerry, you nailed it. That was the point I was making. I didn't mean to imply that Bryant or anyone here was a proponent of "cheap grace". I was more concerned with the health, wealth and Jesus is you "buddy" gospel of some popular mega-churches today. Worshiping God is a serious and sacred thing. We should do it joyfully, but respectfully.

As for hell, I think we spend too much time on it. It is the consequence of the rejections of God's grace. "The Great Commission" was for us to spread the good news of Jesus Christ, to all the world. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit and those who hear.

PS- Jerry, I also agree with your posting of a few days ago. This site should be an inspiration to all who come, not an ongoing argument between a few participants. You are right on the mark and I hope that others will follow your example.

Great answer, Janice. That's pretty much the dividing line. It is those who recognize they can never be good enough to stand before a holy God who will be justified in the end. Jesus taught about this in Luke 18:9-14.

I think there is no God, so not worried about any judgement. If I'm content with my decisions, I've not hurt anyone else, and other people are also happy with me, and seem to like me, and I have plenty of friends & family around me, then that's good enough for me. I'm not really interested in living by a out-of-date ancient text, that I don't even agree with for the most part.

Jonathan, that makes perfect sense if you do not believe in God. I am happy that you have friends and family, and am sure people like you. I'm sure we could be friends, even though we have differing opinions here. I pray that one day you will change your mind. God Bless.

Sure Ricky, I think so too.

Yeah, as you know, I'm into things that make sense!

JCO, Well, we have something in common coz I'm into things that make sense too....

At the present moment, I know we cannot convince you that there's a God. But, can you convince us there's no God? Further, how can you be convinced that there's a God? Like what proofs do you need?

JCO, A further note... The purpose of hell is designed not only for punishing the sinners. Coz some people (non-believers) really need it to be their eternal dwelling place. Please don't take me wrong. I'm not trying to be mean here.

Let me use an analogy here to illustrate another concept of hell. Assuming your father loves you but you hate him. Or you don't regard him as your father. He wants to live with you but you never want to live with him. That is to say, you want to separate with him forever...
Out of your father's love, he won't force you to live with him coz he knows that you wouldn't enjoy doing that. He won't kill you for your "sin" but he would just give you a place to stay far far far away from him (where you can enjoy eternal BBQ by the Lake).

I can't remember right off where it is, but in the bible it actually says that hell was originally created and intended for the devil and his angels(paraphrased). So God did not ever intend or want to have any others go there. We make that decision for ourselves. God will be the one to judge who truly rejected His saving grace through Christ-not me or anyone else for that matter.

Christ Follower, Yes, Hell was not "orignally" intended for the sinners

Hell was created for Satan and the angels that followed Satan. Matthew 25:41

However,thanks to Adam and Eve eating the apple and the fact that we inherited their genes (sinful nature), it is thus sad that the non-believers' destiny is to join the fallen ones in the eternal BBQ feast.

I know that a couple of people that post can be sarcastic and even rude, but I wouldn't want them to get the impression that we are happy or take it lightly in any way that any might be eternally separated from God. Just a thought.

We pray that all the non-believers here realize the seriousness of the eternal separation from God and get to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior before their journeys end....

Amen

I pray in agreement with Ray that as many as possible would come to know Your saving grace through Christ & that You would especially touch those that have come to this site & open their minds & hearts to Your light & out of the darkness that satan would have them remain in. IJN Amen

We are no different than the prophets, wasn't it Ezekiel who God told he would be going to the household of Israel and forwarned that they wouldn't listen to him or heed his preaching? Yes I get perturbed when I try to help people to understand the Bible and they tell me that it is not a believable book, but still I don't want them to go to Hell. I have a man who attends our Church ocaisionally who doesn't believe in Hell but still I have to tell him about this place because I don't want him to go there. I don't go to his house and constantly remind him of this but sometimes when he comes to the Church this might be the topic for the sermon, not because he is there but because it is time for this to be preached. Jesus doesn't want anyone to go there and that is why he came and died.

I like this direction of thought. If we are disciples, then we share the good news. Those who have an ear to hear will.
We all know John 3:16 by heart. We should also remember our Lord's words in John 3:18:
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. But, those who do not believe have condemned themselves. In the end, each person has/had the opportunity to believe.

God Bless,

Yes, we are only the tools used by the Lord if we are willing & obey. Only God's Spirit can do the true conviction, not us. We do have to remember that God sometimes will use those that have sinned the most like Paul. So, I feel like we should take every opportunity to be a light & a witness even those that seem unsavable like the two who have found their way to this site, but as Jerry suggests we need to try not to argue with them because that is not of the Spirit. God bless

For Ray,

"But, can you convince us there's no God?"

No. I can't tell you there is no God FOR SURE. All I can talk about it what is likely and what is not likely. I put the God of the Desert (your God), Allah, Shiva, Bhagavan, Vishnu, Waheguru, Ek Onkar, Zeus, Yahweh, Apollo, Thor, Tenri-Ō-no-Mikoto, sun gods, moon gods, Yoruba, Loa, Orisha, Anirnitt, and Mextli all in the same category. You are an atheist, like I am, with respect to all those gods (and this is just maybe 0.01% of all the gods we've ever dreampt up as humans), however I just happen to add the first one as well to the list, which just happens to be your particular god.

The 1,000s of gods we've invented are equally unlikely and equally improbable.

"Further, how can you be convinced that there's a God? Like what proofs do you need?"

It's not about proofs. I look a the data and the evidence, and conclude what is reasonable in my own mind. The claims of Christianity are not reasonable to the rational mind, any more than the claims of Islam are reasonable.

I think there is something though in the human mind that makes religions real to people and the problem is that we did not evolve a baloney-detection device in our brains to discriminate between true and false patterns. So we make two types of errors: (remember statistics??) a type I error, or false positive, is believing a pattern is real when it is not; a type II error, or false negative, is not believing a pattern is real when it is. If you believe that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is just the wind (a type I error), you are more likely to survive than if you believe that the rustle in the grass is just the wind when it is a dangerous predator (a type II error). Because the cost of making a type I error is less than the cost of making a type II error and because there is no time for careful deliberation between patternicities in the split-second world of predator-prey interactions, natural selection would have favored those animals most likely to assume that all patterns are real.

And hence we have religions.

Christ Follower - Yes, Jesus chose Saul as a mighty instrument to build his Church. He passed over Pilate, Caiaphis, Gamaleal, or others who persecuted him. Why Saul? God will use who he choses, in the way he choses. We might kick at the goads, but he will use us. Your daily comments are evidence of that.

God bless you,

Thank you Grant, I very much enjoy your insightful comments on this site. JCO, you very much remind me of an atheist friend of mine. They went down kicking and screaming before they accepted Christ. They described their conversion as if they were seeing the world through totally new eyes. They constantly won the top honors for all the science classes and is now a brilliant cancer doctor. Still praying for you & God bless.

Oh, also by the way, the friend I spoke of was voted most changed of anyone at our class reunion. Their countenance had even changed. They no longer even looked the same.God had changed them from the inside out. God bless

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are atheists who've done quite well for themselves.

Even if your story is true CF, it says nothing about the validity of Christianity.

Quite true, I love this person dearly & did even before they became a christian. Kicking & screaming like I said :-) God bless & have a good day.

Jonathan, I have to take exception to your comment that the "claims of Christianity are not reasonable to the rational mind....". There are and have been many rational and reasonable people throughout the centuries that have been Christians. Some of our best thinkers today, including very learned philosophers, scientists and historians are Christians. Just because atheists do not believe it does not mean it is an unreasonable belief to have. It's very different from unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, or Zeus for that matter. Unlike those things, there is a sound basis for our beliefs. The reasons we site may not convince you, but they are not unreasonable or irrational.

Excuse me... the reasons we "cite". I also wish I could correct my posts.

How is the God of the Desert different from Zeus? Why is your god more realistic than that one? People believed in Zeus for over a 1,000 years, and I'm sure must of had very good reasons for their beliefs.

ONLY ONE offering a personal relationship- all I'm saying on the subject.

People seems to have a pretty personal relationship with Allah.

Moreover, not one person here can define what you believe in. Not one person here can explain to me what exactly God is. This has always been curious to me - you believe something, but you can't define it. I know you can say "oh it's the great father figure" or "He's the big guy in the sky" or whatever, but what exactly IS god...?? If I asked you what a car is, you can say "It's something that's got rubber wheels, made of steel, had a nice radio, glass windows that are made of silicon dioxide, etc." But what is God?

God is the Supreme being that a great majority of all of the population since the beginning of human life has existed, believe to be the starting point of everything that exists. You call him the god of the desert, we call him Father, the God of the desert and mountains. Since before time he was and after time as we know it he will be. He is the Holy God who placed Moses in the cleft of the mountain and he let him see his hinder parts as he passed by. He was the one who while Moses was in his presence was made to shine so brightly that the people had to place a veil over his face just so he could stay in the camp. He was the cloud that the children of Israel followed during the day and the pillar of fire that they followed by night. He is the God who caused a great flood to cover the earth and left remains of fish skeletons high up in the mountains that has been found and caused some scientists to admit to a great flood. He is the God who upon the completion of his Temple filled the house with his spirit and filled it so no one could enter. His book is the only book in existence that has predicted itself and it has fulfilled itself. Even today there are prophecies that are still being fulfilled. He is the God that we prayed to when my daughter was about to die in Egelston Hospital with a heart condition and even before the doctors began their giving of her medicine watched as a group of people gathered to pray in their presence and when He (God)answered their prayers,the machines returned to a normal level and the Doctors said they didn't know what had happened and there was no explanation for what they wittnessed. He may not be real to you but to me he is the only real stable being in this world. He may not be a tangible God that we can touch but he is a God that I can feel deep in my soul. I already know what your responce will be like but it doesn't change a thing with me and no I am not a simple minded person as some believe Christians are, I am an educated person, I do not try to persuade people to be surprised at what I know I just want to bring glory and honor to my God. I know this won't satisfy you but for myself and the other believers on this site, He is the one who we are longing to see and to dwell with throughout all eternity.

He is the one who loves you so much, that he sent his precious beloved son to die that you could be with him also. You may deny him but you can't stop him from loving you, and he has place a desire in the hearts of the believers on this site to love and pray for you that you might be saved one day and you can't stop us from having that desire. JCO and Eric we love the both of you and we don't want you to go to hell and I still pray that one day salvation will truly come to your house.

JCO, God is invisible but we see the effects of His hand at work in creation and in the beauty in the world. God is a still, small voice most often heard through reading His word in Scripture. God is the One who has imprinted us with His image with all the possibilities to do good in the world as His power at work in us allows. God is known as I AN---God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit, the three in One God, the God who lives because He has conquered death. He takes up residence in people's hearts. God is the One who saves us from our sins---He makes us aware of the law and knows we can't meet all the requirements and that makes us quilty of sin which results in spiritual death. God is the One who came to earth as a baby (Jesus) and died on a cross because that was God's plan to secure man's salvation from the eternal consequences for their sin. Most of all, God is the One who loves me more than any person could possibly love me because He is perfect love. He is also truth and light and to know Him brings much joy and hope. JCO, there is so much more to God and we can't wrap our brains around Him but what I have written is a place to start since you asked about Him. I pray you will get to know Him real soon.

I am so sorry I did not proof that before I sent it, it should read I AM not I AN.

You guys didn't answer my question as to what god IS, you only told me his "properties", not what he is. i.e. it's like if I asked you what water is, you'd say "it's wet, it's cold or sometimes hot, you can drink it, you can swim in it, it falls from the sky" etc. but those things don't tell me what water IS. Water is the combination of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, covalently bonded at 109.5 degrees to make the compound we call "water". That's what water is...it's not something that you drink. Well it is, but it doesn't "define" water.

Likewise, you still haven't answered my question about god, because you don't know - as I predicted.

One way or the other I think we've all described some of the characteristics of God on this site, but to give a description of the God in the bible in a few paragraphs is too large a task because He is too awesome for us to sum up like that. We could write many books & still not fully describe Him. I will because you asked this is a very small start to your question. Unfortunately I do not feel that you ask because you truly care, but anyway He describes Himself as the Alpha & Omega(the first & the last) The bible says that we were made in His image, which I'm sure you already know all this. Now do I think that He looks exactly like us, of course not. In Exodus He did not allow Moses to look fully upon Him. He only let Moses see his back because He would have died if he had observed God in His full glory. God describes Himself in Ex.34:7 as compassionate, gracious, loving,faithful, forgiving, but that He would not leave the guilty unpunished. He of course is described in the bible as the Creator of Everything & as being infinite. He is revealed in His creation & His word. Proverbs in particular reveals much about His character. For instance pr.3:32-33,12:2 describes how He loves righeousness but hates wickedness. Pr.15:26 basically says He loves honesty & hates dishonesty & 12:22 that He loves truth but hates lies & 21:27 that He loves the prayers of the upright but hates the religious rituals of the wicked. He knows our deeds 5:21, 15:3 & knows our hearts 15:11 He repays those that do good & punishes those that are evil 17:5, 19:17 & that evil men will reap what they have sown Gal. 6:7. Proverbs & the bible as a whole represents God as a seeker of men while sinners will ultimately stand before God as their judge. There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death 14:12 & All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight but the Lord weighs the motives. I think Jonathan it is time that you weigh your own motives for why you are on this sight & ask these questions & if it is for good or not. I could go on and on about God's Holiness, but I don't think you really care.I am done on this devotion. God bless

God did not see fit to share his molecular construction or DNA properties with us-

JCO, I understand that you want God reduced to a scientific equation. He is not that simple. We are not advanced enough and would not have numbers,etc. big enough to account for God. As I said He is too big for us to wrap our brains around. I accept that you find our explanations unacceptable. That is where you are at in life. If you ever make the leap of faith you will have better understanding of what we are talking about however you will still have your own personal experience of God. He is just that kind of wonderful God. He is a personal Lord and Savior. There is no need to argue the point. People either have a heart that understands or they do not. I pray, please Lord, open the eyes of JCO's heart. In Your time, and Your way, Lord.

"In the beginning God..."

God created all that man's science seeks to understand. At the end of this quest - when science has exhausted itself - science will still be as far from comprehending God as ever. The finite cannot contain the infinite.

Science, music, the arts are all expressions of man's longing to understand his own meaning. In it's truest form, this quest to push the limits of our understanding is also a quest to know God.

God understands this and he reached out to us with his word, his Son, the way the truth and the light. He came to gather his sheep and his sheep know his voice and follow him. Those who are not his sheep do not.

There have been many wonderful testemonies of faith in this devotional. We have shared our love for God and our assurance that he loves us. Let he who has ears to hear, hear.

Goodnight and God bless,

"God did not see fit to share his molecular construction or DNA properties with us"

Alright! Now we are getting somewhere. God has DNA and molecules. So if god has DNA, you think he's a being then - like us, and even like a tree (which also has DNA). Continue...

JCO. Give it a rest.

Give what a rest? I think a reasonable and rational explanation as to what you believe in is...well reasonable and rational. I've heard over and over again that belief in a god, particularly the God of the Desert, is reasonable. If it is reasonable, let's hear what He is (in a reasonable prudent person sort of way). Again - not his properties, like "cold" to describe ice cream. I want a description of the milk, vanilla, and cream that make up ice cream. Besides that little blurb on the DNA of God, you've all been just talking about the properties of God, not a description as to what He is.

Like Grant said give it a rest. You can reread the page we painstakingly wrote describing Who the God of the bible is. Just because He did not go into an indepth description of what kind of substance He is made of changes nothing about Who He is. He is after all described as a Spirit & no I'm not going into describing that. You're smart and can look that one up in the dictionary. Discussion closed, devotion absolutely closed as far as I'm concerned.I don't have time for games. Reread discriptions above to get our answers. Still praying for you.

CF - if you think accurately describing something that you believe in, or accurately describing anything for that matter, is a "game", then I fully now understand why you believe what you do. You aren't interested in reality, or describing your world accurately, just dogma without reason.

I'm off to get a beer. It's been fun.

To all of the believers who has posted on this particular devotion. Thank you for answering the questions that was asked of each of us. They have been answered very satisfactorally. They have also been answered in a Christian manner. It may not sound like much but I for one am proud of how each of you stood in defense of the scriptures. I hope one day Jonathon will quit trying to understand God and his word with his head only but will let his heart play a part in understanding. There is nothing wrong with letting our hearts help mold our belief as long as it is backed up by Gods word. I know this won't satisfy him and I really don't care about that at this point because we have gone above what we should have done on a site that is owned by JFBC and I thank them for allowing us to express our views. I feel he is not at all interested in learning about God, he is only interested in trying to make us look and feel like fools because we don't side with him. I will pray for him but even at best he will have to want to make a change in his life, I hope it will happen one day. Again I am proud to call all of you my brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless all of you.

Thank you, Jerry, for your kind words, and we truly do appreciate all of the comments made by you and others who are so wonderfully defending their faith. Just one quick point - this site is not owned by JFBC, but wholly and completely by Right From The Heart Ministries, which is a completely separate entity, a non-denominational media ministry.

We agree that there has been enough discussion on this devotion and would ask that we all agree to STOP and move on. It is quite obvious that we must sometimes just agree to disagree with those who delight in attempting to sidetrack the devotion of the day.

Thank you and we hope you all have a safe, blessed and thoughtful Memorial Day weekend, giving pause to honor those who so courageously gave their lives for our country.

Reality isn't really my opinion. It's reality. I'm not trying to make you agree with my opinions on music, or my opinions on art or politics, this is about what is true, and what is fiction that defies all reason.