I do not understand how people live their daily lives without Jesus and the Bible. I depend so much on my daily prayer and Bible reading. When I need help the most, I find the help in the Bible.

That's the whole point really.

It is not Christians that assert the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as the only way, it is our Lord himself. You can reject him or you can embrace him, but you cannot have a partial relationship with him.
God will not share His glory. It's in the first Commandment.

BW invoked CS Lewis's trilemma: Was he Lord, liar or lunatic? But he leaves out one option- that JC was legendary. We've no way of knowing what Jesus did or did not say, or even that he actually existed. It's possible the legends about him which were written down (40 to 100 years after his death) are just that- entirely legendary and not based in any sort of fact. Or it's possible there was a real Jesus (more likely several people) who said and did some things that quickly morphed into legend. We have no way of knowing what exactly is truth or fiction in the gospels. We do know for certain there is a great deal of fiction though.
Also, it's not right to blame "religious" people of the time for Jesus death, as if they were a different species than the religious people of today. The Jews were commanded by GOD to kill anyone who blasphemed. They were merely carrying out the law that God had given them. And what if they had NOT done their duty? What if Caiaphas had said, "Oh yes, I changed my mind, he is the messiah. Let us worship him!" That would have put us in a real bind don't you think?
The really valuable thing is not Jesus' actual life and death and resurrection, but the STORY of his life- his example.
So here is my little Bible study message for today: if you REALLY want to be like Jesus then start saying things that upset religious people. Say things that run contrary to the teachings of the current high priests and Sanhedrin. You'll know you are doing the right thing when they try to make you stop. Be careful though. It's dangerous. Can get you crucified.

Erik, Jesus believed in the Scriptures as the word of God. I want to be like Jesus. I believe the Bible is God's Holy Word. You make a good point about following the example of Jesus. It wasn't the Christians he was upsetting except for when they felt convicted of sin. I hope you are able to get a handle on how to truly follow Jesus and not just want people to follow you to...by the way, where ARE you going?

Erik, I suppose you *would* be like Jesus if you went around to some religious leaders of today and pointed out how their traditions or doctrines get in the way of a real relationship with God; or, if you chastised others who have a love for money and fame, and not for God. You could point out to some how they focus on hate-filled speech toward those who they see as sinners, while ignoring their own sins. You could rebuke all Christians whose speech, attitude and actions are hypocritical and counterproductive to the spread of the Gospel. However, you would not be like Jesus if your goal was to draw people away from his Father. You would then be carrying out the mission of his enemy. That's not the side I'd want to be rallying for, and I have to wonder why you are so eager to pick up that mantle. The question is not only about where are you going, but who are you following.

The reason many of us know that Jesus existed is because He exists in our personal lives today. Those that TRULY accepted Him as LORD and Savior don't have to question it because of the change not only in their mind and actions, but also their heart. There are some who give themselves completely and immediately to Christ that have been able to at once even give up longtime addictions. The key is to not just accept Him as Savior of our life, but also Lord. If we do this there is always an immediate change in our lives. Yes, unfortunately we often try to take back control of our lives and that is when we again get caught up in sin and will have to accept the consequences from them. The worse part is that it harms our witness for Christ. This is not a new problem though. In the New Testament Paul and others writing letters to the churches chastised followers for being weak and returning to their sin. Anyway, as a born again Christian, I don't particularly consider myself "religious" because following Christ is a personal relationship with Him when we TRULY accept Him as Lord and do our best to follow His example as we live our short fleeting lives in this world. God bless

Things are slow at work today. So I’ll bite, Erik.

“BW invoked CS Lewis's trilemma: Was he Lord, liar or lunatic? But he leaves out one option- that JC was legendary.”

--You’ve clearly got your perspectives wrong. JESUS offers you the “trilemma” – the so called “option” that he never existed (legend) is a completely different argument. It exists outside of the story and words of Jesus. The two have nothing to do with one another.

“We've no way of knowing what Jesus did or did not say, or even that he actually existed.”

--We do. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are all written testimony. If you chose not to believe the testimony, so be it. Almost all credible historians or scholars will tell you with certainty that Jesus existed. There are a couple of kooks who sell books that say otherwise, but even those are few and far between. Sorry, but that is just grasping at straws.

“It's possible the legends about him which were written down (40 to 100 years after his death) are just that- entirely legendary and not based in any sort of fact.”

--It’s possible, but not probable. The story of Jesus reads nothing like a legend. Beowolf is a legend, a folktale…vague details, a setting in a far away place, events that took place long ago, monsters,…that’s a legend.

--Also, you assume that ALL events involving Jesus were written down 40-100 years after his death. How exactly do you know that? The Gospels were written 40-100 years after Jesus’s death. You are taking that fact to mean that the Gospels were the ONLY things written about Jesus.

“Or it's possible there was a real Jesus (more likely several people) who said and did some things that quickly morphed into legend.”

--Legends don’t develop quickly, nor are they taught as religion, nor do we have any actual evidence that the story of Jesus was a legend. Sounds more like hopeful thinking by non-believers.

“We have no way of knowing what exactly is truth or fiction in the gospels. We do know for certain there is a great deal of fiction though.”

--LOL, this is my favorite statement. First you say the we don’t know what is truth or fiction, and then in the very next sentence you say that we know that there is a “great deal of fiction.” LOL, which is it? And how in the world did you come to the conclusion that it is fictional? You or anyone else’s lack of belief in the Scriptures isn’t evidence that they are fictional…

“Also, it's not right to blame "religious" people of the time for Jesus death, as if they were a different species than the religious people of today.”

--You aren’t reading the devotional as much as you are reading INTO the devotional. In fact, Christian doctrine assigns responsibility for His death to all people. He died for all of us, therefore we are all responsible.

“The Jews were commanded by GOD to kill anyone who blasphemed. They were merely carrying out the law that God had given them.”

--You are disregarding the possibility that Jesus wasn’t blaspheming. Just like the Jews did. And that’s the point.

“And what if they had NOT done their duty? What if Caiaphas had said, "Oh yes, I changed my mind, he is the messiah. Let us worship him!" That would have put us in a real bind don't you think?”

--That would have been the proper response. How does that put anyone in a bind?

“The really valuable thing is not Jesus' actual life and death and resurrection, but the STORY of his life- his example.”

--In the story of his life, Jesus constantly claims to be God. You say he wasn’t. So the lesson is that some guy who lived 2,000 years ago was a liar? What use is that? Would you like to pick and chose the parts of Jesus that you like and don’t like? If so, join the millions of other Christians who do the same thing.

“So here is my little Bible study message for today: if you REALLY want to be like Jesus then start saying things that upset religious people. Say things that run contrary to the teachings of the current high priests and Sanhedrin. You'll know you are doing the right thing when they try to make you stop. Be careful though. It's dangerous. Can get you crucified.”

--People say things contrary to Christianity all the time. You seem to do it whenever you can. All you get is a group of people who pray for you.

Erik, blah. You gotta do better than this fluff if you want to make people think.

My questions are rhetorical, you don’t need to answer them. I’m not interested in your opinion. Since you insist on hanging around, the least you could do is offer arguments with a bit more substance.

If someone went around today claiming to be God, saying stuff like “I AM the light of this world” and other such nonsense, they would be committed to a mental institution. And even if such a person showed up, and claimed to be, say, the messiah, the one that Jews are still waiting for, I think they’d still doubt he was the real deal anyhow. But such is the religious mind…
Obviously no one alive today has any way of knowing if Jesus was a real historical figure or not. Anyone who says they know either is not being intellectually honest with themselves. And isn’t that our place in this world, to be intellectually honest? To blindly believe in myths and legends, with vacuous evidence, is not being true to the human process of inductive (and deductive) reasoning. No one helps to move society forward by turning your brain off, as evidenced by the religious repression throughout the entire Dark and Middle Ages.
How do we know it’s legend? Picture a thought experiment by where you erased the memories of everyone on Earth, and you also got rid of all technology, writings, books and all information. What would we do as a race? Well, first we’d learn to feed ourselves again, learn how to hunt again, learn how to communicate, and other basic human needs. Thousands of years from now, we may have relearned all our science, all our philosophy, and ethics. We may eventually get back to where we are now — socially, politically, scientifically, morally. But guess what? Jesus and Christianity (and all religions) would be gone, forever. We’d have NO WAY of discovering anything about Christianity again. Because there is no evidence for religions, and all of them are man made.
So I don’t agree with atheists who say “Jesus was not a real person” nor do I agree with Christians (obviously). My guess on Jesus is probably something along the lines of what Erik said – he was probably an amalgamation of several people, or maybe someone different entirely as to what the Gospels of today state. Who knows, but more importantly — why does it even matter?
We’ve come a long way in 2,000 years, and have learned a great deal about morality, ethics, and secular values. We live now in a world where a church, and a leader of millions of people, is either sexually abusing, or supporting the abuse of, young children in the thousands. Worse, they’ve been committing these atrocities for a very very long time. Why is it allowed to persist? Why hasn’t this been stopped long ago? Why have many other forms of child abuse (grotesque circumcisions by Rabbi’s for example, where children have actually DIED in the process) been allowed to continue? Religion. That’s why. And religions have been something off limits from criticism.
But times are changing. People have had enough of this stuff. It’s misrepresentation about the way the world works, it’s gross ignorance, and it is based on nothing more than legend. You can’t be a student of philosophy, chemistry, biology, history, or palaeontology, or any other thinking discipline and believe in this stuff. I think the time has long passed to move on.

Austin, the Gospels are not evidence. Try again.

JCO, you say the time is long past to move on yet you keep coming back. Something is drawing you to this site. Is it the relationship that the believers have with one another? Jesus said, "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35) Perhaps you notice a difference in the believers that does not seem to be found elsewhere in the world. It's like a loving family and people want to be a part. We are from different denominations, different ages, male and female, etc. yet we all have the common thread of Jesus being in us. We treat each other with caring respect. We try to treat our enemies with respect and common courtesy, too, although at times it is a challenge. Anyway, you don't have any desire to believe as we do yet there is something...is it Christian love that is pulling you to this site? I am just trying to understand so I will know better how to pray for you.

Austin says his comments are rhetorical. Well, I am not interested in rhetoric- I am interested in getting at the truth.

As far as what Jesus "offers"- no one really knows. You would have to accept the gospels as accurate unbiased accounts which they are clearly not. It gets pretty ridiculous you know. Like, "well he must have been God because he did all those miracles." Ok, and the Buddha must have been God because he did miracles too. If you are going to believe one fanciful account of a God-man you have to believe them all.

When I said we don't know what is fact vs fiction, I meant any specific passage. Did Jesus really say

Whoever is not against us is for us
—Mark 9:40
or was it more like this:
He who is not with me is against me
—Matthew 12:30
Yes. No. Maybe. Nobody knows. Many of his saying are stolen from others such as Rabbi Hillel
"Do unto others...".

Even if the original was somehow perfect as the fundamentalists claim, the texts have been so monkeyed with by the Catholic church that nobody knows what they originally said.

And legends don't develop quickly? Says who? A bunch of apologists who are scared of any other possibility. Use your own mind and experience- haven't you ever seen something happen and then with MINUTES it starts to become legendary as people re-tell the story, add and subtract details. An expert in legends (author of several books on urban legends) named Alan Dundes actually wrote a book about the Bible called "Holy Writ as Oral Lit: the Bible as Folklore". I highly recommend it.
In any case YEARS is probably long enough for any legend to develop. Look at the modern day example of the Mormons. How long did it take ol' Joe Smith's lies to get going?

You say that it would not have been a problem had the Jews/Romans decided to worship Jesus instead of kill him but then how would we have been saved. Preachers today would get up and say, "One man paid the price...well almost paid the price...for our sins."

On the issue of Jesus divinity- he does not claim to be God. The idea that he did could be inferred from some of the things he said, but he does NOT make that claim outright. In fact this was a source of great controversy in the early Catholic church.

As far as where I am going- RickY and Janice- Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you, so I'd like to think I'm already there.

Janice, I've explained several times why I'm here, and most of the times my comments get deleted. Ask RFTH if you really want to know.

But it's not the love in Jesus's message.

People like Michele can say "I do not understand how people live their daily lives without Jesus and the Bible." But I can't understand how people can live their lives based on 100% fiction.

Erik and JCO, we've already gone through all of this before and I stated already all the proof that I need is the immediate change of mind,heart, and actions and overwhelming feeling and knowledge of the love of Christ on the day I accepted Him as Lord and Savior. So all I have left to say is that I will continue to pray for both of you and hope that someday that you will no longer have the desire to be the center of your universe, but instead will be willing to turn your heart and life over to Christ and let Him be the center of your life instead. I pray that you will someday find what His will and purpose is for your lives and be washed clean of your sins through his saving grace by His death on the cross for you.

CF, a warm and fuzzy feeling is not proof of anything, other than the fact that the human mind has the capacity to believe almost anything, and induce certain neurological responses. Your spiritual placebo is not evidence that acient legends are true. Surely, you can see this.

Moreover, how many people in the world would say something like "I stated already all the proof that I need is the immediate change of mind, heart, and actions and overwhelming feeling and knowledge of the love of Mohammad on the day I accepted Allah as Lord and Savior."

So I guess, logically, their fuzzy feeling are then proof that their ancient legends are also true.

Erik, I didn't see your last post when I posted mine, so I will comment on the subject of who Jesus claimed that He was- you can read Matt. 26 verses 63 & 64. I'm not going to quote it, it is quite self explanatory and as far as Joseph Smith the letters written to the churches in the New Testatment are full of warnings of false teachers and heresies. You will know them by their actions. I'm through commenting now because like I said we've been there done that and there is no point. Still praying.

You bring up a good point, CF.
Here are the passages you cite:

26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

In other words Jesus doesn't say he is the Messiah, only that "you say I am.."

However in the same scene in Mark, he gives a different reply.
14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Even if he had claimed to be the Messiah (the Christ), the Jewish messiah was not "God" but a leader who would overthrow the Jews oppressors and vanquish their enemies, accompanied by a general resurrection of the dead.

No, Jesus did not claim to be God. So maybe he wasn't?

"New Testatment are full of warnings of false teachers and heresies."

The Koran is full of warnings of false teachers and heresies.

The Vedas is full of warnings of false teachers and heresies.

The Torah is full of warnings of false teachers and heresies.

Ādi Granth is full of warnings of false teachers and heresies.

Zeus warned of fales teachers and herersies.

Yawn.

CF, either you admit your reasoning is circular, and illogical, or we'll have to hire some people that work in the Circular Reference Department at Microsoft Excel to talk to you.

Erik and JCO, I have read all the comments and see the anger and bitterness in your selection of words. I perceive your hearts want to believe, but your pride and arrogance are causing you to condemn those of us who know the truth. I can say these things, because I was once one of you. On this side of salvation I have a love for you and desire that you come to know The Lord Jesus Christ as your savior and the joy and peace that grows sweeter every day as we walk through the trials of life.
May you both behold the glory of the Lord soon!!!!

"I perceive your hearts want to believe, but your pride and arrogance are causing you to condemn those of us who know the truth."

Actually, I don't want to believe. I don't want to live in a celestial dictatorship, or a supernatural North Korea. Total survellience around the clock. No thanks. I'm actually very glad it isn't true. And, I'm very happy that the Old Testament is false.

It's an excellent thing to not believe in the absurb propositions of any religions. It is the wish to be a slave to an imaginary friend.

And it isn't true. Enough. And don't quote scripture again as evidence, please. I've had it up to here with scripture.

I won't address the arrogance issue.

Who's angry? I'm not angry. I disagree with folks here but I think they mean well, so I'm not angry with them. I even like debating with some of them, such as RickY.

I reserve anger for sleazy businessmen who pray on Christian good-will, like the very cowardly Lee Strobel.

Truth! The TRUTH is we have a huge amount of DNA in common with Jelly Fish, and many of the same genes. And if you go far enough back, we were once the same creature. We have a common ancestor.

There is not a slightes shadow of a doubt, that we are cousins with jelly fish.

Sorry, if the truth upsets you, but that's just the way things are...

Did you also know, there are over 150 religions worldwide with over a million followers? So, what's your evidence that your version is correct, and the other 149 are incorrect?

Hmmm...and I guess you think the complexities of the universe, this world, etc just happened without ANY design? I guess you think that it just happened that out of the billions of people in the world that your DNA is unlike anyone elses? I guess you think that it just happened that out of the billions of people in the world that your fingerprints just happen to be unique and not shared with a single other soul, yea right.

JCO, We have no words that will change your way of looking at the world. You are very set in your ways and think you are right and we are wrong. It is okay to disagree without being haughty about it. You are welcome to claim a jelly fish as your close relative. I personally think more highly of my relatives than to call them jelly fish! Anyway, I wish you well and appreciate the fact that you and Erik did not do this barrage on Easter Sunday. Thank you for that consideration. I hope you are able to get out and enjoy some of the warm weather and spring blossoms. It has been an unusually beautiful spring. There have been many reasons for me to be thankful lately. I am glad to know to Whom I should give thanks. But even if you don't I still hope that you get to enjoy the beauty of spring. He gives it to us all, believers and unbelievers. We are all recipients of His goodness. Something special I saw on Easter morning at the sunrise service on top of Lookout Mt. was that two plans left contrails in the form of a cross in the sky. I loved seeing that! So did the other believers. To you it means nothing. A dividing line and an intersecting line...the cross. You stand at the dividing line. If and when God chooses to draw you in you will have full understanding of the intersecting line. Peace to you, little brother. Happy belated Easter!

That was suppose to be planes, not plans!

JCO: Since you do not believe in our God, do you believe a higher power created our universe, this world, and us?
If yes, please enlighten us Christians and give proofs.
If no, please also give proofs.

As James says, a life is just a vapor. I am blessed in this life and, like most, I have had some sorrows, but in the grand scheme of things it's a blink of the eye.

I look forward to an eternal relationship with Christ Jesus. "Celestial Dictatorship"? What tripe. When I left for work this morning I knew that I would return to a fussilade of responses from Erik and JCO. Sadly, you didn't disappoint.

Becky, your comment don't really warrant response. They mainly demostrate a lack of understanding of many things. Too much to get into here.

Janice, thanks for the message. I hope you are enjoying spring as well. I went out tonight with the dog and saw a rabbit! That's something you never see around here, and my dog went crazy.

Ray. You are talking belief. I don't really believe anything, unless I have reason to believe something. There are certain things that are facts, and other things which are just beliefs.

Fact - the universe, given all the scientific evidence we know today, began with a cosmological explosion. Why that happened? I have no idea. Who knows. Maybe we'll never find out, maybe we will. But these are interesting questions for sure.

Fact - life begain on earth several billion years ago. How that started? No one really knows. Right now we have guesses as to how that happened, but they are just guesses.

Fact - life evolved on Earth through the slow process of natural selection. We are a byproduct of that process, as are dogs, cats, fish, birds, trees, ants...and the millions and millions of species on Earth today. (And the billions of species that no longer exist, as 99% of all species of life ever on Earth are now gone).

"Since you do not believe in our God"

No, no reason to.

"Do you believe a higher power created our universe"

What do you mean by a higher power? Like some mystical force? A guy in the sky? Again, I don't really know.

"this world, and us?"

This world was formed the same way all the planets in the universe were formed. Us? Evolution of course.

"If no, please also give proofs."

I'll have to go with "no" here. But this isn't really a yes or no question, which demonstrates you haven't thought this though. No I don't think a "higher power" (whatever that is) created the universe. Again, I don't know - no one does, so what is it I'm supposed to prove?

So why can't you answer if you believe there was absolutely NO Intelligent design involved with you being a unique individual in every way including fingerprints and DNA from every other person in the world? There's nothing all that complicated about the simple fact that you are for better or worse, one of a kind.

JCO, I respect that you are a rational human being. In order for you to accept Jesus Christ is God, what proofs do you require Him to give you? What facts and evidence must be presented in order to satisfy you?

Erik, your comments prove that you really don't know much about the Bible at all.
The Jews thought The Messiah was a conquering deliverer, thus they did not recognize their true deliverer. If you study the Old Testament and understand all the prophecies about Jesus that were fulfilled in the New Testament, you would
answer your question as to why are all the 149 other "religions" wrong. The difference in Christianity and all of these is that God came down to earth in the form of a human to identify with His creation. He reaches out to us where all others expect us to reach them with no guarantee we will ever get it right. And your verse in Matthew referring to Jesus' answer that you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. On that day every eye will behold Him and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. So one day, no matter what you believe now, God will require you to recognize His Son and you will not be able to refuse. And not just you, but all of us. And if you should decide to follow Him before that, you will understand that
the ones who in the name of Christianity commit atrocities are not true followers of Christ at all. Stop looking at people and REALLY look at Jesus. Look with skepticism if you will, but disregard what people say, and look honestly at who He says He is and what He came to do for you Erik.

Sorry, the comment about the 149 religions belongs to JCO. I apologize.

Linda- if you want to talk about specific OT "prophecy" that you have been told concerns Jesus then I'd be glad to do that.

It was JCO who mentioned the other religions, but since you brought it up, Christianity is not different from other religions. Almost all of them feature some kind of man-God who dies and returns from the dead. It's extremely common. Even back in Bible times they recognized this:

"Justin Martyr (100-165 ce) recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)."

Yes Linda, human sacrifice is a common thread throughout most religions, and animal sacrifice as well. Humans have been slaughtered in methods that were supposed to please various gods, nearly since the beginning of time. And it was a common theme in many belief systems long before humans invented Christianity.

And Linda, you can't just prove points by quoting the point you are trying to prove. Again, talking about the Bible is no proof the Bible is true. How's that different than quoting ANY religious text and concluding it's true? Validation has to come externally.

Becky:

"So why can't you answer if you believe there was absolutely NO Intelligent design involved with you being a unique individual in every way including fingerprints and DNA from every other person in the world?"

Because I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion around genetic mutation and DNA transcription. Read about them if you wish.

OK, Erik, please explain the Zeus thing.I don't know much about mythology. How does that relate? Thanks.

I don't care what people try to say, everything has to have a creator. Common sense tells us this, true science will back this up, and since all matter needs to be created I believe God is the creator. I also accept that Jesus is the Son of God, and is equal with God because He is God. I believe this site is dedicated to this belief also so I will not engage in usless arguments with those who refuse to listen to reason or scripture. I know some have said that we need to be educated so we can look at this issue with itellegence, well I am an educated man with college experience and still I believe in the Bible. Call me ignorant if you wish but I am a very happy ignorant person. To all the believers, I wish you a very blessed week and to the nonbelievers I wish the same thing to you.

"I don't care what people try to say, everything has to have a creator."

Everything? Okay then...who created God?

You've certainly never minded going into long drawn out discussions before. Anyway, whatever process God may have used to accomplish it, does not change the fact that the odds are nill of it just "working" out that You, my friend, are one in billions, but with a completely one of a kind body and soul. You can have things mutating, evolving or whatever. The results are still the same and you CAN'T really explain WHY you are completely and totally created unique and are branded so by your DNA and fingerprints.So discuss it or don't discuss it. It does not change the results or WHY it is that way. May you someday know that you were miraculously and wonderfully made by a loving God that provided a way for your sins to be forgiven by Christ taking on our sins by his death on the cross.

Yes, the odds of me being here are small. I agree with that, but the universe is massive. It is on a scale that our human minds can not even begin to rationalize. Some of the stars you see at night are thousands, maybe millions of years old. The light is only getting to us now.

It's all very humbling, to me.

The universe is very very old, as is the Earth. I fail to believe that an illogical legend created by humans only just 2,000 years ago (99.999% of the way through human evolution) is the answer to everything. You seem to think me being here is unlikely, but how unlikely is it what you are suggesting? Ask yourself that question. That the answer to all the mystery is some bronze age writings after we've already been here for millions of years? Moreover, human being have been seeking answers through inventing these religions for a very long time. How likely is it your particular legend is the answer you seek? Unlikely I would think.

It's a big, wonderous universe. I don't propose to know the answers, and I think this is a much more humble view than stating "This non-sensical ancient altered, non-internally consistent book of fiction, full of atrocities, and contraditions to science" is the answer to everything.

Life wants to reproduce, it's why we are here and a cockroach is here. Sex is the reason we are all here. The union of DNA is the engine of it all. Why does DNA want to do this? It's a lower energy configuration, which is a law of physics, and the physical universe.

In terms of the wonder of the universe, I actually AM a deeply religious man. But I don't buy into man-made faiths.

JCO, thank you for you heartfelt honest answer. Perhaps for now all we can really agree on is that our universe is an awesome and wonderous place. Any way you look at it our existance as individuals is a marvel indeed. Believe it or not I don't necessarily think science is generally in that big a conflict with the bible. A day to the Lord is said to be as a thousand years. Anyway, for now we'll just have to agree to disagree on how this miraculous universe was formed. For me the more complicated the science is the more evidence it that it was formed by Intelligent Design. Anyway,it's late so I'm ready to go to bed. Goodnight and have a good evening or morning that is :-)

Becky, You are very correct in your statement that this universe that we live in is a wonderful place. I have been a student of science and history since I was a young man but one thing that I have seen during my studies and while sitting in classes is that science is forever changing, Gods Word hasn't. I know alot of things are being discovered but sometimes when scientists say they have discovered something new, what is really happening is they have discovered that they have been wrong about something for a good deal of time. It is odd that the Bible says things will happen and when they do the unbelievers don't recognize that the Bible was correct. They just think it happened out of luck or selection. I try to respect Eric and Jonathons's view but sometimes it is hard too. I agree with some of the things they say to an extent but then they keep saying that we have no proof of anything and I just have to tune them out, we do have proof of our belief, the Bible, writings of people who has lived before us, history and even events of today. The lititure that we produce is treated as starting fluid for fires, while the lititure that they produce is treated as the final word. This is a never ending argument between two sides that I believe will be decided one day in the future at the end of times when our God settles it. That is how I feel on this subject, Eric, Jonathon i do respect your right to believe how you do but I don't have to believe that way. No I do not believe that you respect our views. You say you just want to rid the world of our ignorance and belief in a man made god (as you have said before)well we feel the same way towards your thought process also. I have not killed anyone nor have I wanted to because they don't believe the way I do, things like this was recorded in the Bible and I agree that I do not understand fully why it was done but if we sat down and wrote a book on the crimes of the unbelievers it would stretch alot farther than what is recorded in the Bible. Please there is no need to respond to my post because it would be very repeative of your post in the past. Have a good day.

Erik and JCO, where does all the anger come from? Seriously, arguments aside, you two are lashing out at people you don't know, who wish you no harm, who have done you no harm, and without any apparent reason or purpose. If that isn't obvious to you and doesn't cause you to wonder about your own life, I don't know what would. At the very least, you ought to realize that you aren't doing Atheism any favors by attacking kind people without provocation... Where are your heads?

No anger, just answer me this one question. In the following link, you'll see that we've discovered another species of hominid in south Africa, a relative of humans in the evolutionary tree.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/science/04/08/hominid.discovery.skeleton/index.html?hpt=C1

When he died 2 million years ago in South Africa, given he is a very close relative of humans, where did he go:

a) to heaven
b) to hell
c) to some other religion's afterlife
d) no where

??

JCO& Eric, We have asked you time after time why do you keep coming to a site that is supposed to help lift the faith of believers and point the unbelievers towards the God of our faith if they want to go that way? You do not bring anything positive to the table because you concider our faith useless and yet you keep trying to stir up trouble and constantly bring up imformation that we do not accept nor believe. Why do you keep doing this, if our faith bothers you that much why don't you go to the sites that you believe to be true and post on those sites? I know this may not sound right, with it being wrote on this site but the fun has long gone out of your arguments. I know this is not my web site and I apoligize to RFTH if it is offending to them or any of the other believers, but the way you put down this site and those who post on it is tiresome. It is apparent that you will not ever come to believe in the Bible and its teachings (you have said that before) so let those of us who want to share our faith with our Brothers and Sisters in Christ do so without having to worry if you will offend the new believers that come to this site for uplifting. Thank you.

So Jerry, if you go to my link, click on photo #5, the palaeontologist has an actual picture of the skull in his hand. Yet you still don’t believe this? So given evolution is 100% true, where did this man go when he died 2 million years ago? Okay…I ‘ll tell you what. I’ll suspend my own reason myself for a second, and state that this skull is not a relative of humans, but something else entirely. Some other creature God created 2 million years ago that’s now long gone. But the question still remains, where did he go when he died?

Why can’t you answer the question?

JCO, you left off answer
e) I don't know
in your multiple choice answers. The believers are not God. He is omniscient and if it is that important for you to know then you need to make arrangements to meet with Him some day and ask Him (if the question is still a burden to you at that point). Jerry told you quite clearly and appropriately how your comments come across. As believers we accept that God has left some things a mystery. If the answer is important He will let us know.

All answers are important. Knowledge is important. Otherwise you are a mindless robot.

Jerry,
As I said above, I knew that this message would be "red meat" for Erik and JCO. Apparently, a number of folks enjoy engaging these guys. The only cure is to ignore them, because there is nothing new to cover with them. We believe what we believe and they believe what they believe. No one was ever argued into belief. It's a "love thing". You either fall in love with our Lord, or you don't. He said the road was narrow and that many are called, but few are chosen. Time to plow more fertile ground brother.

JCO, I tried to go on the site that you suggested but I could not pull it up. And as for the statement of "evolution being 100% true", I do not believe it is true and if you do then you are off your rocker. It is a theory, not a science, nothing has ever been proven that is is a science. Evolution is just a word meaning to move from either a lower estate to a higher estate or visa versa. There is no need to discuss where this man went, if he was a man, he may have been a woman, because I am not God and neither are you or your scientists, so we can not say. According to the Bible if he was not saved then he went to hell, if he was saved then he went to heaven, but what does that matter to you, you do not believe in either place? It just goes along with some of your other question which when we attempt to answer them, they are never answered to your approval. Why can't we just agree to disagree and move on to greener pastures? You can brag to your friends how you made us look silly and we can pray for you and let it go. One day you may come to grip with the fact that you are not going to persuade us to believe your retoric. Again I believe science when it is a science but I don't accept theory until it is proven. Also carbon dating has be proven to be in error many times. You are taking mans word for something that you cannot prove yourself so be careful not to make a monkey out of yourself. have a good evening.

Grant: according to the Calvinism that you profess isn't it really GOD's fault that I don't believe, since he has not decided, in his mercy, to save me?

I believe I can say that we've gotten quite off the original devotion subject. We don't really need to get off on so many different tangents where we can't fully go into each individually properly. I didn't bother to check out your link JCO, but basically I trust our creator to be just and take all things into consideration concerning your question. Like Janice said we don't know and as "smart" as you are, you don't have a clue either. Erik as far as your question to try to goat Jerry, the fact of the matter is God I'm sure knows what your response will be, but he made us all with free will and not robots so you are free to reject Him as you are doing and that makes it your choice to be rejected by him. You might as well not bother addressing my comment because this will be my last post on this particular devotion because like I said we've gotten way off topic and I think we've pretty much covered the original intended subject. Besides that, like Grant said it only fuels your desire to be the center of the universe on this devotional. You don't truly seek any answers anyway. As I've told you before I will be praying for you that God will get your attention and change your hearts by whatever means it takes for your soul's sake.

Erik, God has reached out to you with His word. You have read His word. You have found it unacceptable to meet your conditions. Yes, He does draw people to Himself in His timing but we are given the opportunity to receive with open hearts and let Jesus in or else to have a hardened heart toward Him. I would say He has reached out to draw you in through the reading and hearing of His word (Scripture) and also through the Christians here on this website and through whatever other associations you have with Christians. There you go again saying it is all God's fault and He must be a bad God to reject you. Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news but it comes down to you and your choice. He does reach out to you in various ways I have no doubt. We all pray for you to have a change of heart (and JCO, too). Goodnight & God Bless (if only you are accepting of His blessing).

Jerry. LOL. I don't know what to say, only you've bought into the silliness and lies online about evolution, carbon dating, and other such matters.

Ok, I got your answer - the billions upon billions of people (and precursors to humans), and all other creatures on the planet (including jelly fish), who lived for millions upon millions of years before Christ, are all in Hell. Got it. Makes a lot of sense...

Just clearing up that I meant to say it was Grant that you were addressing about Calvanism and not Jerry. - sorry...now seriously moving on to new devotions.

Jerry,

Let me, as politely as I can, explain your gross ignorance to you. Please go and read up on some of these topics, and not on Christian web sites pandering to people who think like you. ACTUAL scientific and research journals.

"JCO, I tried to go on the site that you suggested but I could not pull it up."

That site was CNN. In the article a palaeontologist is shown in a picture, holding a skull in his hand, that is not a human, but a close relative. The skull was dated approx. 2 million years old.

"I do not believe it is true"

Yes, and people today still believe the world is flat, that the holocaust didn't happen, that Elvis is still alive, that George Bush brought down the twin towers, that man has never walked on the moon, and that Big Foot is real. So what? There is over a hundred years of scientific evidence supporting natural selection. And that is the fact. I've actually studied evolutionary biology in unversity, and I know a thing or two about it. I would be my life, my son's life, and my wife's life that evolution is 100% a fact. No serious scientist anywhere in the world doubts this. Do me a favour? Go talk to a university biologist, and see what he/she has to say. You might just change your mind.

"and if you do then you are off your rocker."

Sorry, that's not me ;) And evolution is NOT a belief. Scientific evidence supports it. And besides, even if it were shown NOT to be true (and good science is allowing theories to be tested, modified, made better), it would only be replaced by ANOTHER SCIENTIFIC THEORY. It wouldn't be replaced by bronze age writings, written by men who didn't have a clue as to what they were talking about.

"It is a theory, not a science."

It is a theory yes, and it is a science. But stop staying theory like it's a bad thing. Atomic theory is also a theory, but no one doubts atoms are real. It's amazing how many times "Only a theory" has to be explained to Christians, and they continue not to understand. Why do you not want to learn? Why do you not want to understand what a scientific theory is? It's mind blowing that you want to remain in ignorant bliss.

"nothing has ever been proven that is is a science."

Your statement is non-sensical. Science is science. That's like saying "Nothing has ever been proven that the study of motion is physics."

"Evolution is just a word meaning to move from either a lower estate to a higher estate or visa versa."

No. Wrong again. Your statement just tells me that you haven't taken 5 min out of your life to even try to understand what evolution is. Yet you tell me you don't "believe" in something that you continually demonstrate that you don't even have a basic understanding of.

So what's the point of debating this topic with you when you have a knowledge on the subject that is probably at the grade 3 level?

Even my three year old son knows that dinosaurs were "big animals that lived LONG ago..."

We've been very lenient in allowing this discussion to continue - trying to be fair to everyone - ad nauseum. But this is the end of it. Once again, we will agree to disagree and move on.