JCO, Man is a mammal, not an animal, we are very different from animals, we are able to make decisions and cause actiopns that make differences in the world, animals can't. God is not created in our image we are created in his image, this has been shown to you many times but you in your know it all attitude and argumentive way of disturbing the pattern of posts and thoughtful devotions will not accept. God is not a monster, while you have made him soud as if he is one but you are reading the scripture with a mindset that you just want to cause trouble. You are like a boy that I was in school with, he didn't want to learn anything so he constantly made stupid comments to keep everyone's mind off of what was being taught. You are exactly like that. Again if you are never going to believe the Bible then why don't you quit posting on here and let the ones who want to learn, be able to do that. You just don't understand that you are not impressing anyone, you may have secular knowledge, as some of us do also, but your attitude is showing that you are very immature. I believe many others on this site feel the same way, we will be praying for you but I for one have gotten very tired of your childish way of arguing. You do not debate, you argue.
RFTH, if I am out of line I will appoligize, but sometimes people have enough of unbelievers constantly ridiculing our beliefs and I have had enough of his. If my view is not in line with the beliefs of the host of this site then I will do as I have advised him, I will go somewhere else.
Thank you and God bless everyone.

JCO
Your reasoning is faulty. Although some animals can "think and reason", only man can look on a situation and then make a decision on what to do based on morals.

A few days ago the devotional was on the Trinity. Here in the first book of the Bible we have God saying "Our image" and "Our likeness". While nowhere in the Bible is the word Trinity used, there is testimony to it everywhere.
That said, the Bible is God's word for us to understand his plan and purpose as best we can. That we were created in his image points to our special place in creation right from the start. The details of God's plan unfold in the Bible and his purpose becomes clear to those who "have eyes to see and ears to hear". We were not created for this world only. Far from it. We were created for his eternal glory, purpose and pleasure. Our greatest pleasure is found in loving him with all our heart and all our strength and all our soul.

Jerry, a mammal is an animal. A mammal is a member of the vertebrate class, and vertebrates are a member of the Animal Kingdom. This is basic grade 6 biology that everyone should have learned here at some point. But do you see then the problem with religion? It is what has clouded you to forget certain basic facts about life on Earth.

I'm actually thinking that religion is an "addiction", maybe similiar to sexual addition where reality becomes distorted. The sex addict looses all touch with reality, and convinces himself that what he believes is real. Maybe the religious mind is suffering the same sort of dementia?

Judy, your comments demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of biology and what we know about animal behaviour. Volumes and volumes of scientific research has been written on this topic over the last 200 years. Obviously, you are ignorant of all of it, so I won't get into it here.

JCO, your arguments and put-downs are stale. Do you know what I do with stale bread? I crumble it up and feed it to the birds. That way it is not wasted and is used for some good. God always finds ways to make use of bad and evil to turn it to good for the ones who are believers. So I trust in Him to use all you throw at us in some way to be a blessing. Our faith is only encouraged by the nonsense that you speak.

More idiotic comments from the angry peanut gallery.

Please tell, JCO - which animal demostrates moral choices? The eagle who throws her chick out of the nest because it isn't fit enough? The male lion who kills his young because they could eventually be competitors?

Perhaps you'd like to see a dolphin on the Supreme Court?

Should we have trials for animals that don't behave morally? If a dog attacks a person, should we sue it?

Animals are not able to distigush right from wrong. They understand insticts and risk/reward. If you think something else, you are simply projecting.

Austin, one example of THOUSANDS fo scientific studies. Once again, to be religious is to have incredible contempt for evidence.

Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

Obviously and clearly, no one here has a sweet clue about Biology either. I know Erik has some expertise in the field. Erik?

JCO - you should read that article you linked. It actually said that the vast majority of scientists now and in in the past agreed that animals do not have the ability to make moral choices. Then two scientists are quoted as believing differently. And the findings that those guys talk about are not accepted by the scietific community. It's all right there in the article.



BTW - an article like that isn't really evidence one way or the other. It's just a newspaper article. Nothing scientific about it at all.

Blah - if you don't even read your own articles, you aren't worthy of engaging. I'm off to ask my dog if it is wrong to cheat on my taxes.

Non-human animals (and we are animals) display "moral" behavior. Sam Harris gives examples in The End of Faith.

What's interesting is how what is "moral" changes with time and culture. In Bible times it was considered the highest example of morality to kill one's own children for disobedience or for having pre-marital sex. In some fundamentalist Islamic countries this is still the case. So for me the whole thing about morality is misplaced.

Erik, God's laws are timeless. One of them says, "Thou shalt not kill." Same law and morals back in Bible days as now.

Austin:

Obviously I did read the article, but my well-developed brain allows me to read it and interpret it correctly ;)

1. The article does not say anywhere that the "vast majority of scientists" NOW believe that animals don't have any sense of morality. Quote me the sentence that says or implies this. Can't hey?? I know it says "until recently" but it doesn't say who thought this, until recently...

2. Then ONE scientist, not TWO, was quoted as believing differently. However, he did attest that "Primate psychology has ancient roots, and I agree that other animals show many of the same tendencies and have an intense sociality."

Get that? MANY OTHER ANIMALS SHOW SAME TENDENCIES. Sorry for the caps, but it appears you are having trouble.

3. It does not say that their findings are not accepted in the scientific community. It does say it's "controversial", however. Controversial to maybe religious bumkins like yourself, but not not to the scientific community.

4. How is it not scientific evidence when the research was conducted by scientists?

Sorry for beings somewhat nasty, but you said that I hadn't read the article, when I in fact DID read the article.

Anyhow, there is a wealth of evidence and research beyond this, but you won't hear it because of your brainwashing anyhow.

Jerry, they spit on Jesus, beat him and shouted for his death. When they mocked him on the cross he simply said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

People do make moral choices and I do not know what the moral imperative is that motivates JCO to come here and insult people. That will be between him and the Lord someday. I simply choose to ignore him (long since thinking I could change him). I enjoy your insights and hope that you will continue to post. God bless.

About the belly button. I understand God has no mother, so no belly button required. Also no need for nourishment.

Are there other levels at work here? Interesting point, so I'm just curious if I'm missing something.

I'm beginning to wonder if we have multiple personalities going here with Erik and JCO. How sad that they come on to this site where the grace, love, and perfect glory of God is reflected and continue to leave in ignorance . When you talk about ignorance, remember there is ignorance of the Word of God as well. My love is for my Savior and He gives me the grace to love Erik and JCO and remember the Bible says and some of you were these. And i was one of these. I used to think i didn't believe in God, but on the other side of salvation I now know that everyone believes in God really, they just refuse to acknowledge the truth We can all quote the truth of God's Word but remember the things of the Lord are as foolishness to the natural man. And 2 Timothy 2:24 tells us that the servant of the Lord MUST not quarrel, but be gentle and apt to teach so that the unbeliever may be taken out of the snare of the devil. Erik/JCO continue to babble your rhetoric and we will trust in the Lord with all of our heart and lean not to our own understanding. And we will continue to love you and pray for you that your chains of bondage may fall away as you behold the true liberty of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gail, I totally agree with you that everyone actually knows deep down that there is a God of some kind. When someone is unexpectly in a fatal situation, like an accident or attack and are able to utter or scream LAST words it is no surprise that witnesses usually report it's more often than not the phrase- OH MY GOD whether they were known to be believers or not. I honestly feel JCO and Erik are here arguing simply because they WISH there was no God for one reason or another, perhaps it makes it easier for them to deal with their own conscience or they're just plain angry with God or someone they feel represents Him. Whatever the reason I feel they are trying to convince themselves more than us. They certainly don't care about us so why put so much effort into continuing to come on this site? I'm sure from the time spent here that they don't put the same effort into arguing about other topics they disagree with, so I think they need to examine why it's sooo important to them to try to supposedly change our minds. I think they're trying to convince themselves, not us at all. JCO and Erik I'm still praying for you. Going to bed and moving on to another devotion. God bless

JCO Please stop harassing others who do not agree with you. It is a sign of immaturity.

I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but 'harassing others who don't agree with you' is something Christians have been doing for 2000 years.

Erik, please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems I recall that you have a website and I am wondering just how many of the Christians here have been over on your website telling people that they should not listen to you and that they should follow the One we follow? I have never sought out your website to harrass you. And I doubt that others have. Yet you and JCO frequent this site to tell the Christians how our beliefs are not right and sometimes derogatory names are used regarding our intelligence,etc. Sometimes crimes are committed by people calling themselves Christian and Christianity gets blamed. But I can't see why you are saying you have been harrassed. When the only thing that has been done is presenting the good news of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and you are free to listen or close your ears and heart; there is no one pulling your leg or pushing you to join in our beliefs. If you feel your heart being tugged at then it is only God reaching out to you in hopes you will surrender to His love for you. He has been known as the "hound of heaven". Is that the harrassment you speak of? Consider yourself blessed that He reaches out to you. People are praying for you and JCO.

Psalm 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD.

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. 11 I know every bird in the mountains,and the creatures of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it. 13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? 14 Sacrifice thank offerings to God, fulfill your vows to the Most High, 15 and call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you will honor me."

Come on, folks, don't blast Eric and JCO for posting their remarks and (often) disrespect. They have found a website that allows it and are simply taking advantage of the invitation. If you have anger about the situation, direct it at RFTH management. They have the power to delete or reject any comments they wish. Obviously, RFTH does not want to reject these comments. The question is why. Seriously, is there any hope that Eric and JCO will 'see the light?" Of course not. Is it because it stimulates exciting dialogue? I doubt it; it just seems to be making current users angry.

So what is the reason? My guess is that allowing and encouraging these attacks is a great way to stimulate donations. The best way to build an organization is to have a common enemy and by having Eric and JCO stir things up RFTH is trying to get more money in. There's nothing wrong with an organization trying to raise money, folks.

If however, RFTH sincerely wants to use this website to reach people for Christ, I can attest that they have, at least in my case, allowed the Eric strategy to backfire.

well, that's another subject. But i do want to say to the regulars, that if you are upset about the Eric/JCO comments don't blame Eric and JCO.. RFTH is in complete control of the situation.

Sam, we have all discussed whether or not RFTH should not allow these 2 to comment,and we decided they should stay on the site. Do you think Jesus would have abandoned them? I think there is still hope and as you can see from the comments, we are still praying for these 2, yes, even when they are disrespectful. I don't believe this has ANYTHING to do with donations, but it does have EVERYTHING to do with loving and praying for the unloveable.

I can't begin to see how allowing Erik and JCO to comment on these posts could possibly bring in any extra donations whatsoever. If anything there have been some people that have been put off by their comments and said they were leaving the site. So I really can't see it bringing in a lot of revenue for RFTH by any means. From my own personal perspective, we as christians are to follow the example of Christ and have the courage to stand up for our faith, but in so doing show God's love. All of us at one time were unbelievers and should be willing to reach out and care about those that are still living in the dark. Who are we to say that there is no hope for people like JCO and Erik. They certainly wouldn't be the first atheists or agnostics to come to Christ. All we can do is pray and be a witness for Him and let the Holy Spirit be the One to convict.

Hey, Sam, we might have given up hope on JCO and Erik but the Bible gives us the story of turn-around-Paul. When I think about JCO and Erik I am always reminded of Saul/Paul. I think RFTH has been clear that they will allow civil discussions and they do remove posts that are overboard and I think on occasion they ban someone who does not abide by their parameters. I do not think this is in anyway connected with a pursuit of donations. I think they are being considerate of unbelievers and realizing that some of them may be angry at God for whatever reason and perhaps they are here to receive the kindness of the believers who do care about them despite their sometimes disrespectful comments.

I don't harass people about Christianity and I don't know any Christian who does. Don't judge all Christians by the actions of those who call themselves "Christians".

What I don't understand is why RFTH allows this kind of banter but on Friday when I commented on the "Trinity" RFTH posted a comment that we are to agree to disagree and no more comments would be allowed. What's up with that? What is the difference here? Is the "Trinity" or the book "The Shack" limited to comments?

Just wondering....

In response to your question, Kim, stopping the comments had nothing to do with a discussion of The Shack. With that in mind, and to avoid any confusion, we are opening up comments once again, so please feel free to share your thoughts. God bless you.

People accuse us of being disrespectful, and yet it is the Christians here who use words like "stupid" "idiotic" and "angry" to describe us.

As far as harassment goes, I can't imagine a believer NOT harassing people. If I thought my friends, family and neighbors were in danger of eternal torture I would be knocking on doors, taking out ads in newspapers, doing everything possible to 'reach them for Christ'.

So when someone says they don't harass people I can only conclude that they don't really believe this stuff, but think it might be true and believe 'just in case'.

Why I am here? As a former evangelical myself, I feel that evangelicals are harming themselves and others by spreading untruths and superstition.
I am concerned that vulnerable people can be victimized by this sort of thing.

Kim, do you want to have more discussion of "The Shack" or the Trinity?

Erik, why would you want to take away a person's reason for living? I do believe my primary purpose is to know God (Father God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit) and to glorify Him. I am much better off now that I do know Him than I was before. So why would you want to see me go backwards? I think somehow you are disillusioned about God or maybe you thought you knew him before when you never really did. Anyway, He speaks to me through His word and I trust what He says. He gives me reason day by day to continue in faith in Him. I love Him. He is my reason for living. And I suffer when you and JCO put Him down. But I bear the suffering because it may be a part of God's plan to reach you guys. We believers who meet here at RFTH are still praying.

Erik, I certainly apologize for anyone that has called you or JCO any of the names that you mentioned. There may has been one or at most two people on this forum that have used this language to describe what you "believe". I would challenge you though, to go back through any past devotions and find where the more regular posters have made any of those comments to you. Please show me where either I, Janice, Judy, Jerry, Gail, Grant, FCE or others have called you stupid or idiotic, etc. Yes, some of us have definitely shown frustration from some of your comments toward us, but for the most part you have been treated respectfully and reminded that you are being prayed for. The only time 99 percent of us have shown frustration at all is after our beliefs have been insulted .I am not going to argue with you about it though, the truth is most definitely for all to see and check out from past devotions. On your other comment about harassment, Christ told us to share our faith with others, not to try to force it down anyone's throat. As I mentioned in one of my previous comments on this devotion, while we are to share our faith, it is the Holy Spirit that will convict and change people's hearts and minds. Any christian that tries to force someone to accept Christ will on the one hand be unsuccessful and on the other hand is being self centered by laying their faith in themselves and not on the Lord to be the one that can change lives. Again, I'm not going to go back and forth with you about it. I have other things I have to attend to, but I hope you have a good day. Still praying for you, God bless.

Just sticking my nose back in here for a second. I sort of got off the subject when I theorized as to why RFTH allowed Eric & Company to take over the website. That wasn't my purpose for writing. What i was doing was resonding to some of the earlier posters on this board who seemed to be angry at Eric and JCO for posting. My only point should have been: Don't blame eric,etc for posting. If you don't like having them on this site, blame RFTH, not Eric. RFTH has complete control over what appears here and, for whatever reson, has decided that Eric's participation is a good thing. That's all I should have said; sorry for bringing up side issues.

Sam, thanks for clearing that up :-) In sort of RFTH's defense though, I imagine there's that little issue of free speech that sort of would prevent them from keeping anyone with just a difference of opinion from posting. I've even noticed that often christians don't necessarily agree with their devotions totally or each other for that matter. I appreciate it when they do step in when things get heated and disrespectful though and they certainly have a right to do so. Again thanks for sort of clearing up your first comment and you certainly have every right to your opinion. God bless and have a good day :-)

I just wonder how Jesus would feel about the comments going on here. I don't read anything here that is coming from a positive attitude...everyone is defensive and pointing fingers. We are all allowed to disagree on topics, but saying some of the things being said (a certain tone is heard in the words) and then ending with God bless you and have a nice day, kinda sounds hypocritical or sarcastic. Maybe that's where these other guys are getting the mixed message. Not that I agree with them either, but maybe when making a comment, we should stick to the topic and leave out all the emotion. A good debate is a wonderful thing and the topic of Jesus is a personal and emotional one. It will be hard to do, but let's try to stop feeling attacked all the time...it sends a bad message to both believers and non-believers.

Janice, I have no desire to continue our discussion on the Trinity or The Shack. Thanks though.

Kim, I certainly want to apologize if I come across at being sarcastic or hypocritical. I take it by your comment that you were talking about me, since I do usually try to finish my comments to our resident atheists or agnostics with hoping that God will bless them and sometimes with wishing them a good day. I do sincerely try to be completely honest as I can be with them and have no agenda other than sharing and at times defending my Lord to them. I along with several others have been talking to Erik and JCO actually several years now and hopefully they know my heart and that I deeply care about them and pray for them every night in fact. There have been times when several of us have had very long discussions with them, debating many issues. I have come to the point where I try not to go back over some of these issues very much anymore because I don't think arguing about these things over and over pleases the Lord and it really gets us nowhere anyway. I guess I'm just basically writing this comment to hopefully clear up that being sarcastic to anyone is the last thing on my mind and I certainly wouldn't want to come across that way at all because as I said I do deeply care about Erik and JCO and pray everyday for them. Anyway that is my heart and hopefully it won't offend you, but I wish you a good day as well or I should say night, as it's after 3am here, humbly- Christ Follower

RFTH...so if you are opening up comments again on the Trinity, people will have to come to this devotion to see that since your original comment remains on the Trinity devotion page. I don't mean to be critical, but if a statement is going to be made here, it needs to be rectified at it's origin.

Christ Follower

I was speaking to everyone on this page, you happened to focus in on the way you end your comments, but it was meant for all. I'm not coming here to judge what everyone writes, that is not my intention. I just wanted to make my own comments. As you can tell I'm a newcomer and as so, all I hear is a lot of blame and pointing fingers....all in the name of being a "good Christian" (or not). That's where I believe people from all walks of life feel as though Christians are hypocrites. We are all guilty at some point or other in our lives of being hypocritical, judgmental, and even feeling superior as Christians, but we need to be aware of those times and make them fewer. We're all a work in progress and God reveals to us what He wants us to know when He knows we're ready...our greatest task is listening!
Just my thoughts as an objective outsider.

Kim, Welcome to the site. I always look forward to new perspective. After you have been here for awhile you will understand the "dynamic" we have with Erik and JCO. I for one have heard all that they have to say and all the response that can be given. It's plowing the same old ground with them. It's between them and God now. I don't expect to have any influence on them by engaging in what you called "debate", because it serves no purpose that I can see.

JCO, you must not have read my post closley. I did not say animals were not mammals. I just said man can make decisions that makes a difference, animals cannot do this. They do not possess this quality of a brain or capability. I understand Biology as much as many others on this site. In the future read all of the comment closely before you jump to a wrong conclusion. As I said before when someone answers you intellegently you allways respond with something way off base. Have a good 4th holiday.

Yes, I can see where it could be hard to understand the dynamic of our discussions with Eric and JCO without having been through the last few years going back and forth with them. Personally I have decided not to continue having these dicussions with them because as Jerry mentioned before it isn't really a debate, but more of a argument that I feel satan uses and doesn't benefit them or anyone. I would rather continue to pray for them and yes, wish them a good day than engage in topics we've covered many times, only to have them continue to call our Lord fictional, cruel,etc. We've covered evolution, creationism, big bang theory, DNA,genetics, all the different religions of the world, etc., and of course very looong discussions about the resurrection around Easter. For the most part I'm very proud of most posters on this site when engaging in these discussions with them when confronted with a lot of sarcasm and put downs about their faith and our Lord. Occasionally there are a few comments that on our part as christians that certainly would have been better left unsaid, but again for the most part after navigating these waters for several years I think we've been calm and patient. I hope someday that they do get to a point where they ask sincere questions meant to learn and understand rather than to put down or insult our Lord.

Jerry, what did I read incorrectly. I'll quote you again:

"JCO, Man is a mammal, not an animal, we are very different from animals"

You said:

1. Man is a mammal - yes I agree with you.

2. Not an animal - I disagree with you (as does 99% of the world). Man IS an animal. Humans are animals

What am I not reading correctly??

p.s. I don't celebrate the 4th of July.

Christ Follower

Amen!

JCO - Do you live in the United States?