Great message! Wisdom from God....

I love the divine way God speaks through the beauty of creation. He does make Himself known one way or the other. All praise, glory and honor to Him Who put beauty into our world.

I trust and believe that God's word will be fulfilled when He said that before this world passes away, His word will be delivered to everyone. This will give every soul the opportunity to know Jesus and His way to salvation; and they can decide whether or not they want to accept Him.

This was always a tough one for me, but I now lay these concerns at God's feet. There are already many who never heard about Jesus and died in that state. Jesus died on the cross almost 2,000 years ago, and it took time for the Gospel to spread. But, we also know that God is all knowing, all loving, and perfectly righteous. He knows the choices that each individual would make in any situation they were put in. Scripture confirms that God places people where they are most likely to seek him and find him. In Acts 17:26-28 it says: "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

Finally, we also know that there are many who would reject God even if they saw someone comeback from the dead (Luke 16:31). In other words, it would not matter what situation that some are put in, they would never seek God or reach out to him. This is certainly the case for those who hear the Gospel and deny Jesus, although we must continue to pray and try to get through to those who are lost. We need to remember that they may be placed in our path at this time, when the Gospel is proclaimed far and wide, because God knows that is their best chance of being reached. We simply have to trust in the justice and fairness of God, and in his provision that any who would seek him would be placed in a situation where they can be saved if that is their desire. p

It's funny to me how many people think that God is somehow going to be un-just to those who have never heard of Jesus. As if any human has better moral judgement than God.

The river can't rise higher than it's source.

"Finally, we also know that there are many who would reject God even if they saw someone comeback from the dead (Luke 16:31). In other words, it would not matter what situation that some are put in, they would never seek God or reach out to him."

You know, if someone came back from the dead, that'd be somethin'! But you all know that would never happen. I've never seen a fly spring back to life after you've swatted him.

Chances are, if you've never seen it, it ain't true. Such is the case for god.

And you know, the fact that there have been so many religions throughout the ages, and so many gods invented, is just proof to me that a) Humans obviously have spiritual needs and b) religions are man-made.

So it is then that Christianity is not true by default.

And whatever happened to the trillions of people who lived and died on this Earth for the millions of years we've been here before Jesus? All in Hell? Must be a busy place down there.

We thank and praise His Holy Name for the Good Lord providing redeemption and forgiveness for our sins. We know and trust that His righeousness is fair and that all will be given the opportunity to accept or reject His grace through Christ at one point or another, perhaps even after death if necessary. We pray that all those that have heard will accept Your loving saving grace through Christ instead of turning from it.

In agreement with you, Christ Follower.

If God knows what people would do in any situation, as Ricky claims, then why bother to evangelize? You might as well stay home and watch tv. God is just.

I am rejoicing and praising the Lord tonight for the truth of His Word that penetrates the hearts of His people for growth, purging, and comfort. May we be bold in our witness for Him and see opportunities to proclaim the truth wherever God sends us. I pray for all of you a wonderful evening and an edifying time in the Word and in prayer. I just finished watching The Secrets of Johnathan Sperry movie and found it to be so refreshing. We never know how we influence those around us.

I am more concerned about those whom I love, who have heard and have not come to faith. I know that it is between them and God, but I also know that I must continue to encourage them. It does no good to hit them over the head with it. No one has ever been converted by the power of an argument, threat of hell or physical force. It is love that wins a heart to God. We evangelize because it is our great priveledge that God has chosen to accomplish his purpose, at least in part, through us. I think it is so that we can share in the joy and grow in the love that occurs when a believer is born again.

But Grant, according to your Calvinism, isn't it really GOD who chooses, not the individual "lest any one should boast"?

Grant thank you for your nice explanation of why we should witness to others. It's nicely put and quite simple and so really no other explanation is needed. God bless

I commented in a previous discussion about how God retains his sovereignty and man retains his right to choose. I gave a resource that goes into great detail on this difficult aspect of election in the reformed view. I believe this, but I am not a theological scholar, so I'm not going play the debate game. ALL who repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved. They are the elect.

Erik, I believe God uses others to reach those who do not know him or have chosen not to. I know you believe none of this, but we believe he's given us nature, his word, his son, and those who follow his son in order to bring others into his Kingdom. I'm not a Calvinist, so I believe that everyone has a free choice that they can make to choose or reject him, and that God gives everyone the information they need to make that free choice without giving so much that it's a slam dunk. There needs to be some uncertainty for it to be a real choice, and I think God balances that on a razor's edge so that all who come to him do so willingly, and with the right motives.

Jonathan, the number of religions has absolutely nothing to do with whether one of them is true, just like the number of wrong scientific theories has nothing to do with whether one of those is true. Also, just because you haven't seen something, doesn't mean it didn't happen. You would have a tough time with science and your naturalistic world view if that were true. You were not there to see what might have been before the Big Bang, or the unexplainable, naturalistic, un-caused cause of the universe that you believe in, which turned a point of energy the size of an atom into everything you see today. You were not there to see the life that you say developed out of non-life in a primordial ocean, or how that non-life somehow organized itself into complex, coded information that controls the development of all living things. You were not there to see all of the intricate biological changes that had to take place to make a land-dwelling animal into a modern whale. Yet, you have faith that these things happened without an intelligent agent directing them. I don't have that much faith.

Ricky: the point is that if God knows their 'hearts' already there is no point in evangelizing. God already knows what they would say and has decided to save them or not.

Grant: so a person can both choose and not choose? That's impossible. Either God saves a person or He does not. Either a person chooses or he does not.

Erik in Athens says this: if a person is sent to eternal hell just because the were born in India and had Hindu parents and culture, then that is WRONG. That is EVIL. That is nothing something a 'good' God would do. That is something a devil would do.

Erik, you choose to feed your attitude that sees God as evil and mean. You do not allow that He is sovereign and has His own ways of resolving things that are probably more complex than our human minds can fathom. I see His goodness and love for people and His creation and I put my trust in His love and goodness. I have seen the consequences of being off His path for my life and of being on His path. He is good. He is truthful. He allows us to go our own way. You say we can't choose and not choose. Well, from a human's viewpoint that is not possible but who knows the mind of God. God is God of the impossible. You seem to always be thinking you need to set Him straight. I believe He has His act together. He is my God in Whom I trust. Still praying for you and JCO and others. You have such a desire to understand and have a hard time with mystery don't you? I am in awe at divine mystery and realize that if I understood it all it would probably bring on too much pain. To truly see our own sinfulness with the eyes of Jesus and to be able to fathom what our sinfulness did to Him on the cross....I'll stick with some things about God to be left as a mystery...it is another showing of His love for us to not let us know everything in our time here.

We praise God that in His righeousness that He will save all those that are willing to accept His saving grace through Christ and it is only those that refuse and turn their backs on HIM that will be lost and that it is Your Spirit and not us that can truly lead someone to Christ and that it is for our good to be obedient in witnessing to others so that we are given the opportunity to praise Him for the grace that He has provided to all if they will only accept it. We know He is just and know that in one way or the other ALL will be given that opportunity and praise Him for it.

The number of religions has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not one of them is true. Why? Because what we believe, or rather what we SHOULD believe is based on evidence. There is zero evidence for any world religion (or smaller cult varieties), present or past. There never was, never will be, and it is all on faith and ONLY faith based on what other people have told you and invented historically. (The claptrap is sold to you through fear). This fact renders them de facto false. If there was the SLIGHTEST bit of evidence for either one of them, there would only be one religion because the rest would look foolish by comparison. But that is not so, and even those who are members of the same faith disagree with their own scripture. Nothing else in our world is like this - we don't have thousands of views on how gravity works for example. We have one view, because the overwhelming amount of evidence points towards gravitational theory as developed by Newton/Einstein.


Well, I supposed Christians might come up with "Intelligent Falling" as a theory, but like Intelligent Design, this would also be as laughable.


I did not see the Big Bang no, but we have a lot of evidence that's what happened. Your thoughts and beliefs should follow the evidence. That's just what any sane, normal-thinking person, does. Sure, maybe one day in the future, we will find evidence that refines our view, or changes it slightly, but it will never be replaced by the Bible, Koran, Vedas, Scientology, etc…


You know, most of the time the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, most of the time, the most rational explanation IS the best explanation, and most of the time 1 and 1 equals 2.

Janice says:

1. He is good. He is truthful.

2. Well, from a human's viewpoint that is not possible but who knows the mind of God.

So, given that you can't know the mind of God, how do you know he is good and truthful? Can't you see the error of your logic? This is like saying:

1. My dog is brown.

2. I am blind, and I can't really see the colour of my dog.

If you can't know the mind of God, you might as well give up now...

Erik, my point is that God uses his people to reach those who are lost, but who would be open to his word. Yes, he knows the outcome, but that outcome is influenced by his people. He knows that a person will be saved because of a missionary going on a trip to some far-off land. He knows that a specific devotion on this site or sermon that Byrant delivers will have an impact on someone's heart. Yes, he could just save those people who he knows would follow him, but that's not honoring his creation nor allowing us to exercise the libertarian freedom that I believe he has given us. In short, we evangelize because we are commanded to share the good news of Jesus Christ with others. Also, God doesn't send people to hell because they were born in India. He sends them to hell for rejecting him. As I quoted earlier, he placed people where they would be most likely to seek him. I trust in his perfect judgment to find a way to reach and save those who given the opportunity would willingly follow him.

My thoughts on the brown dog:

1.My dog is brown.
2.I am blind and have friends who see, and I trust them because they have always told me the truth.
3.My friends tell me the dog is brown.
4.I believe and have faith my dog is brown.

I accept that others don't think like this. Yes, it does involve faith. That is a big hurdle that some manage and others just can't do it because their whole way of viewing life and what they do with themselves would have to change.

I was reading in a book earlier today and I saw, "In God's way, in God's time and in God's will." May you, JCO, be blessed by knowledge and understanding of God and be given the peace that passes understanding. You were created in His image and that alone makes you worthy of receiving His best gifts. He loves you whether or not you choose to recognize Him as your loving Father God.

Interesting way to put it, Erik. We also know he's a jealous God. He can get pretty angry, too. But, he's also patient, loving and fair, and when he is angry, it is for good reason. When he punishes, it is deserved. He's the perfect judge. Isn't that what we all want? Perfect justice? He's actually giving those who reject him in this lifetime what they seem to want, which is a life free from him. Hell is eternal separation from God and from those who love him. That is not somewhere I would not want to spend eternity.

Enough said for me. As usual, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Jealousy always stems from weakness.

And I don't believe it is 'fair' to torture anyone eternally for making a mistake in this life.

I too obviously don't believe that being a good Hindu your whole life deserves eternal torture. If this kind of God exists, I have no desire to worship someone like that...

Janice, I knew that you'd come back with that point - that people you trust would tell you that the dog is brown, which I agree, makes perfect sense. Of course! Why wouldn't you trust your mother, sister, husband, etc.

But what are we dealing with here? We are dealing with statements from the ALL of you that usually go like this:

1. God wants this, God wants that, God wants you to believe x,y,z, God wants what's best for you. God loves you. God is jealous sometimes. God is just. God is caring. God is courageous. God doesn't want you to mix your chicken and milk (Jews).


2. You can't possiblly know the mind of God.

The second response comes when we non-believers expose the major plot holes in the religious story. It's like poking through Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi (and then the first three digital cartoons), and trying to find plot errors. And like Star Wars, religion is full of them. Things that just don't make any sense to the human mind. (I won't quote examples for we've done that enough). And what is the reponse always from the blind faith crowd?

"Oh! You are just a human JCO! HE IS GOD. You can't POSSSIBLY know the mind of God!"

Which completely negates the stuff in #1 that you guys like to go on about.

Getting back to your brown dog, the difference here is you have reason to believe your loved ones are telling the truth. Yet, there is zero reason to believe a specific religion is true.

Again, Ricky says:

"We also know he's a jealous God."

Obviously then, Ricky believes we can know the mind of God. But we've also heard him say we can't.

So which is it folks? Can we or can't we?

If we can't, then bother with any of it. Pour yourself a drink and forget about religion altogether, because it's beyong you.

If we can know the mind of God, then people like Erik and I have valid criticisms of that mind, how it work, and the illogic of it all.

A mistake is not the same thing as rebellion. A rebel will say, "I will do this thing my way even if it kills me." Saying that goes beyond being a simple mistake. It is digging the heels in and going against what would be good for oneself just for the benefit of saying, "I am in charge and no one, not even God, is going to tell me how to live my life." A mistake often comes from not having enough information to make a wise decision. But those who have been given sufficient information to make a wise decision and refuse to go the way of wisdom are in a state of rebellion. I have known a few of the rebels in my life. I hate to admit it but I was once one myself. It would be easy to just say I made a mistake by not following God's way but that would be white-washing the darkness of my rebellion toward God. He is a good and loving God to have accepted such a sinner as me. His heart is big enough for all the rebels in the world.

My comment regarding mistakes vs: rebellion was directed to Erik who previously commented about his thought of God torturing people for making a mistake.

Janice, good way of explaining the difference between just a mistake and out naught rebellion. As far as knowing God's mind goes we would be very arrogant to think that we, as the creation could ever totally understand the mind of the Creator.

"As far as knowing God's mind goes we would be very arrogant to think that we, as the creation could ever totally understand the mind of the Creator."

Again. Then why bother? Why bother pontificating on something you can't even begin to understand? How could you have an opinion at all if it is all so beyond you? Why bother telling Erik and I we are wrong when maybe it is His will for us to know He's not even there and fool you into nonsense?

JCO this is the only comment that I will make to you directly on this devotion. I'll just say that the key word in my comment was "totally." We have been blessed though, that God has revealed much about Himself through His beautiful creation all around us, His Spirit, and through the Bible. That is, it is revealed to those that choose to listen. Praying for you. Goodnight, hope you have a good one.

JCO, you ask why bother? My thought is that God bothers with us...He cares for us. He did not create us and then put us on a shelf. He is active in our lives. I desire to be involved with Him. He gives me His word in a form that I can read and through which I can at least get a basic understanding of Him and His attributes. He is so great that a book can not contain everything He does and all the complexity of how and why and what in consideration of His actions. But enough information is given in the Bible to make us aware that He does love us with a mighty love.

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

It is an exclusive love that is available to all! Exclusive because it only comes through Jesus, but it is truly available to all.

JCO If we can't then bother with any of it(I suppose this is WHY bother) Pour yourself a drink and forget about religion altogether because it's beyong(beyond) you.


So why don't you do just that?? If there is no God, there is no hell, nor is there any reason to argue the mind of someone who does not exist.

I come in Peace ! Titus 3:9-11, Galations 6:5, John 4:21-24 and Matthew 22:37-40

Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. Colossians 4:6

Thank you, Gail. This is something we all need to remember each day of our lives.

Just in case there has been a misunderstanding of my last post, those first sentences were from a post by JCO to Ricky. I should have put them in quotes. They were not mine.
My question to him then was, if he is really an atheist, then why all the arguing and supposing about why God would send someone to Hell. If this was wrong, I apologize to all.

Hi, Linda. I wanted to let you know that all of us who have been visiting this site for a while and making comments have had our moments when we have given into frustration with Erik and JCO and made a post that was not the best we could do. Over time it becomes apparent that the very best we can do is to pray for them. Your concern for the readers is acknowledged and grace is given. We have certainly all received grace ourselves.

Right. I don't know why I'm arguing about the criteria God uses in determining who gets sent to Hell. It's like arguing about what angers the Boogeyman, which results in you being sent to the Hot Soup Bowl in the sky.

Simply speaking, Heaven/Hell were invented because religion is always in the guilt-producing control business and if you've got a place of "external torture" invented to trick people, then you gain control of the population.

So, it's just an invention of the church. The church doesn't like you to grow up and learn, because then they can't control you. They don’t want you do be educated (they probably also look at stats and notice most university grads are not religious). And I guess if you are "born again" you are still like a child, and not a thinking adult.

Even if there is a god (99.999% there isn't), God is not a Christian, he's not a Jew, he's not a Muslim - these are only human systems, human inventions, and I think you have to have a lot of arrogance to say that you have the answers...because you don't. I have none about the big questions, but all I know is this ancient mumbo-jumbo ain’t it. Religion spoke its last intelligible word a long time ago.

Thanks, JCO, for the amusement I felt when you indicated you think the church controls people. It is truly not like you think. I guess you would have to visit some churches to see that it isn't about control. There may be some on the extreme end of things that are that way but from what I have seen it is a lot of people who have their own ideas and ways of doing things and the only thing that holds the group together is that they believe in Jesus and He is the glue. He miraculously sticks us together and makes us work together as one body to accomplish some good things in the world.

Thank You JCO! At least we can agree that arguing is not profitable. I am curious, though, what was the last intelligible word that religion spoke?

Okay, now that we have gotten all that settled, lets get on to some real important issues. There are people who are lost and are dying and going to hell, lets turn our attnetion towards them and lets pray for them to be saved before it is too late. I have some who are close to death and they need your prayers. Please pray that they will accept Jesus before it is too late. Thank you.

Sure, settled I guess. But you guys still haven't answered how you can know the mind of God, and not know the mind of God, all at the same time.

The "last intelligible word that religion spoke" was in reference to the fact that religion and God have been pretty silent for the last 2,000 years, and will likely never speak again. What you guys repeat over and over and over in church is just continuous repetition of phrases and irrational themes couldn't possibly be explored any more thoroughly. There will be no more prophets, no more gods, no more religions invented, because man throughout the ages has gotten a lot wiser. Yet many will hang onto these ancient beliefs, as evidenced by those on this site. You do so only based on unreasonable fear, and you have no reason to believe beyond your willingness to believe.

Man was not created in God's image; evidently, it was the other way about, which again is the explanation for the profusion of gods, religions, sects, etc. that have retarded civilization.

I am praying as you requested, Jerry, for the ones you have spoken of who are so near death yet are on the verge of new life. May they be welcomed into the arms of their loving Savior when their time comes for passing to their eternal destination.

Janice, do you understand Calculus? If heaven is eternal, than this life doesn't exist by definition.

But since we ARE here, heaven is not eternal.


Nothing has ever gone against this little law in Calculus, you think you can challenge it?

I can really relate to Paul who said he, who was circumcised the 8th day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, as touch the law, a Pharisee, etc. All of that list connotes the most educated status of the time. He then proceeded to say that what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for Whom I have suffered the loss of all things and do count them but dung (rubbish). that I may win Christ. And be found in Him not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3: 5-9. I had a great college education, a wonderful career, and thought I was the captain of my soul and there was no God, because only fools believed in those fairy tales. But after passing from death to life in Christ, I too say with Paul I count all the things of the world as dung compared to the glory of the Lord and we are definitely without excuse. Now I want everyone else to know the Lord with Whom I will spend eternity with along with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Again I will say being a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is not a religion, but a relationship.

Gail, so true :-)

JCO, I am so glad you are so smart, I may never converse with a smart person again in my life but you are in a class of your own. We know you do not believe a thing that we say, so why don't you imitate a cloud and just move on somewhere's else. We have a right to share our beliefs with other Christians, so respect that. If you are the type of person that you claim to be you will do just that. Some of us are tired of your same posts over and over, we have heard it so goodby. I know some may think this is harsh but it is not, we do not visit web sites that disagree with us and berate the people on there, so just go back on those sites yourself and enjoy your views with people who believe the way you do. RFTH is gracious to allow you to continue your posts but this is not what the site is designed to be about.
RFTH, thank you for being patient with all who post on here. May God continue to bless your Church.