"But so often it seems the church is just absolutely obsessed with praying sick sinners out of heaven"

Bryant, I think I know what you mean, but can't exactly wrap my mind around this statement. Do you mean that God might be using the person's situation to bring the person to Christ?

Mara Miller - Mara Miller

What a message, we pray so much for the sick but so little for their souls. - Ken Cross

A family member has developed Alzheimer's and has had a stroke. I do pray for healing and/or a slowing down of the progression. More importantly, I am praying so hard that she truly knows Christ and accepts Him as her savior. What we ultimately have and face on this earth is not anywhere as important as our life in Christ after this life. - Melanie

This devotion is real good, it is true that we don't want our loved ones to die but we are supposed to be working towards going to heaven. Many times as I have visited hospitals I have had people to tell me that they are so tired of suffering and is ready to go but we are selfish and want to keep them here with us. Paul told Timothy that he was ready to go because he knew he was about to be excuted, rather than ask him to pray that God would deliver him Paul was ready to go meet his Lord face to face. When he said for him to die was gain, he knew what he was talking about. I still remember when people would call their loved ones name out in prayer and ask the church to pray for them, they wasn't afraid that they would embarass the person they was worried that they would die and go to hell. God help us to get back to that place in our lives. If we really love someone and don't want them to go to hell, tell the church to pray for their salvation and call their name. God bless everyone and be in Gods house tomorrow. - Jerry

Per my deal with RFTH I'm only supposed to comment one or two times a week, but I just couldn't help myself here. Let me ask you people something- does intercessory prayer work? I mean does it have any effect at all? Is there a way to know? Maybe God just isn't in the sick-healing business these days. Maybe all those prayers for the sick just make Him mad. So let's pose this question- if you pray for real real hard for 1000 sick folks and do nothing for another 1000, do the prayed-for fair any better than the did-nothing-for? - Erik

You only have to look as far as the prayer requests on this sight and the updates on them to see that God is at work. What you have to understand that God always answers prayer, but sometimes that answer might be wait or even no. The times in my life that God decided not to give me a yes I almost always have been so grateful later that I did not receive what I was asking for. So even the wait or no answers have increased my faith when I can look back and see the timing of my request would not have worked out best or at all or that I was EXTREMELY glad He said no to something else. It also has taught me to be a little more decerning on what I do pray for to begin with and have more of an inner knowledge that it is not something God wishes for me to even ask for. I think this just comes with christian maturity. As far as sick people, there are times when sickness is going to lead to death. It is just their time and unfortunately prayer won't usually change that I don't think. When my parents had cancer I did pray a couple of times for healing, but to be honest I felt God's answer in my heart and changed my prayers for their pain to be less. It's difficult to do, but I personally don't feel right to continue to pray for something when I already have my answer. By the way, I am still praying for you, Erik and like I said I don't pray for anything or anyone that I feel God doesn't want me to keep praying for. - christ follower

I have a different reaction to today's message. Every Sunday when I take my seat in the sanctuary I take time to pray for the pastor; that his message be strong and faithful to the Word. I pray for the congregation; that they will "have ears to hear". I pray for all members who cannot be there today for whatever reason. I pray for those who will hear or see the service on-line. And, of course, I pray that God will open my heart to both the message and to His presence with us during the service.
As for the other comments today, I do believe that God hears ALL prayer that is brought to Him from a broken, humble, needy and believing heart. How God responds to those prayers is sometimes very visable. Other times we may not ever know (this side of Heavan) what the answer was, or why. - Grant

I think we do have to keep reminding ourselves that we should first pray as the example the Lord's prayer gives us- in praise and worship for our Lord & then as an intercessor for others and not so much for ourselves.Sometimes we try to use God as a jeanie, which He is not. - christ follower

Grant, I am glad to hear that someone does pray for the service when they enter the sanctuary, please keep doing this.
Eric, I finally feel that you have asked a question that is not degrading and I would like to give you my feelings on this. I believe God does answer the prayers of those who are praying for others. I know you profess to be a Atheist but try to look from my side. Sometimes things happen in lives of people and there is no logical explaination for it, this is when God has stepped in and has answered a prayer. I am like a lot of the other people who prays for His will to be done. It might not be his will to heal people as far as getting better so he call's them out of this life into the other side of life. My Step-dad died about 4 weeks ago and I knew he wasn't going to get any better so I just prayed that his passing would be gentle and it was the easiest death I have ever watched anyone have. Thank you Eric for your question on this. I don't mean to make you mad with some of my comments but sometimes it just happens when someone berates the belief of Christians. We have rights also but we are having them taken away from us because of a few who are not bashful to want to cause problems for belivers. I know unbelivers have rights also but if they will check out why some things were done as they were in our country they will understand our real history. Have a good day - Jerry

Jesus modeled intercessory prayer in John 17 where he prays for the disciples and all believers. In Mark 16:15 He tells the disciples to go into the world and preach the good news. So it is obvious that He wants all to hear and have the possibility of being saved. That should be the mission of all believers, to tell others and to pray for the salvation of others. I think it is important to remember that we all have an appointed time to die, that is God's will for our time on earth, so that given it is more important to pray for others salvation than for saving them from death. It also seems that people have to first pray for themselves before they can expect to have effective intercessory prayer. By this I mean that a person must pray for salvation or after that they must pray for forgiveness of any current sins before God will hear their prayer. Perhaps this is the place where Erik is, that being the need to pray for himself before he can expect God to listen and answer his prayers. I am not being judgemental in saying this, only acknowledging your disbelief in God, Erik. Answered prayer and belief in God and His ability to act based on prayer go hand in hand. - Janice

OK so my original question was how do you know intercessory prayer work. Looks like the answers so far are 1)Christ Follower: you can tell from the people who believe it worked on the internet and 2)Jerry: Because things you can't explain happen. Also because he prayed for someone to die 'gentle' and it seemed to work. Do I have that pretty much right? - Erik

Erik, what do you mean, "how do you know if prayer works?" Kind of a broad question. Do you want statistics or something? What exactly are you asking? Until you phrase your question with some sort of secificity, you don't have the right to critize anyone's answers. And if you are looking for statistics, look them up yourself, I'm sure you can find some that will fit your view. - Austin

What I mean by "how do we know if prayer works?" is how do we know if prayer works? Instead of attacking the question how about coming up with some answers. Why bother to pray for sick people if there is absolutely no evidence that it ever helped anyone. But wait, what if it DOES help? Wouldn't that be good to know? So how could we find out? - Erik

Eric, To a Christian believer, God is our Father (not a non-believers view mind you) when we pray and ask him for something he will answer us (the Bible tells us this) some times it may not be the answer that we want but it will be answered, the answer may be simply "No". While we do not hear an audible voice we receive his answer in many different ways. Yes I asked for a easy passing for my step-dad and it happened, to me this was the answer that I asked for. He didn't leave violently or gasping for his breath as he did while he was living but he just took his last breath and that was it. I know you are a sceptic but this did happen, I asked for it and it happened. If you don't accept this, than this is you priviledge, it wont hurt or worry me either way. I know this doesn't bother you but I believe you miss out on a lot of blessings by your unbelief. If you don't believe in prayers well there is nothing I can say that will change your outlook, and I believe this is your reason for posting, I thought you was being different this time from your usual self but I believe I was mistaken, if I am wrong then forgive me. - Jerry

Jerry: I'm not dismissing what happened to your step-dad. I am just trying to get some answers to why you folks believe the way you do.

- Erik

It is simple Eric, we believe that the Bible is God's word that was given by divine inspiration to man. We accept this and we believe that it has been revealed and certain things have been fulfilled. I still don't understand why you believe the things you believe. I know you have writings that you have quoted to us on many different occasions but what makes you believe they are correct? You accept your books and yet you think we are either idiots or complete fools to believe the Bible by your writings and comments. We don't believe the books you have read and have asked us to read are true either. I have dealt with people with the same mindset that you have for about thirty years and it is the same argument over and over, so I guess we have same thought as each other. We believe it because of our faith in God and because of writings that we have. If you don't agree that is okay but again lets agree to disagree. - Jerry

About prayer: In fact I believe prayer changes me. God's ideas for life and mine are often not the same. When I am praying for someone or something, my heart changes. I hope that if Erik reads this he will find that going to God in humbleness with a heart turned toward Him, God will in fact answer. The prayers that God's will be done instead of mine are met with love and compassion. I know this because I change, not because God does. To think that I can in fact change God: what about the pot saying to the Potter, why, why,why. Who are we to think that we change the Almighty, the I Am. I have learned to think less of myself and more of Him. He is the one to be worshipped. Now I have learned that He is the ONE life is about, not me. Go with God Erik. He is total Love. - Fran

I think Fran has hit on the key point. When you pray for someone- let's say a sick child or your resident atheist- it has zero chance of helping that person, but close to 100% chance of helping you. It helps by focusing on others, and by talking to what you take to be the divine. The negative aspect is what a see a lot of though, in that prayer becomes a sort of witchcraft, where people try to find the "right" prayer, with the right magic words to make God deliver whatever it is they want. - Erik

Erik, Jesus taught us how to pray. He prayed for the benefit for others because He knew the Father listened to His child's prayer and would respond. We as adopted children of God can expect the same. Please do not compare prayer to a form of witchcraft. For the true believer prayer is part of being a present day disciple, one who follows Christ. I know you will strictly hold to Your opinions and you do not want to understand anything Christian or to believe it has any substance. Until you are saved that is the way it will be for you. I do not feel inclined to prove to you that prayer works. I know it does and I follow the One who teaches disciples how to pray. Just because you have not yet changed according to the prayers of people on this site does not in any way indicate prayer does not work. It is God who works and He chooses His ways and timing. Erik, God loves you and gives you many chances to love Him. In His timing and His way.... - Janice

It is God's Holy Spirit who calls us to repentance and salvation. But we have to respond to Him and accept what He offer's us. Then the greatest miracle we or anyone ever witnesses in this world happens and that is a changed heart, a "total makeover", or heart revelation that creats a "new creature". Every time we witness someone come to saving knowlege in Jesus Christ we witness the greatest miracle of all. But the bible promises over and over again that if we seek Him(God) with all our heart we will find Him. He guarantees it! But we have to be sincere and honest in that search. Read C.S. Lewis' book Mere Christianity. He made that quest as an athiest. Read about Lee Strobel's same search for truth when he was an atheist in his books, The Case For Christ, The Case For Faith, and The Case For A Creator. - Martha

Brothers and Sisters, Eric is no dummy, he has been educated in his belief to know how to yank our chains and get us upset. He is not trying to find anything out about our belief, he is doing a good job of what he has been doing since I started reading this site. We have given him numerous scriptures and names of books to read and nothing has changed in his mind. I can almost see him sitting and laughing at us for trying to convince him to change. It is as others and myself has said before, if God and his buisness is not real, we have lost nothing, if he is real Eric and others like him will lose it all and be cast into the lake of fire if they do not accept Jesus Christ. I will keep praying for this to happen, he may call himself "the resident atheist" if he wants too and think it is cute or funny but one day he and others like him will bow their heads and bend their knees and confess that he is Lord. Then they will learn of the fate they have chosen. You might ask me, "doesn't that worry or bother you?" well yes it does but I can't make him accept Christ, and I can't accept him for these people, I would if I could, all we can do is keep praying for them, this I will do. God bless everyone and have a good day. - Jerry

Martha: Lee Strobel is a disingenuous coward who makes a ton of money publishing re-treads of Josh McDowell. - Erik

Erik, The one who is a coward is the one who is afraid to accept Jesus because it would mean the person would have to make hard changes in their life. Strobel is not a coward because he has not been afraid to accept Christ and all the changes that came about as a result. - Janice

No Janice. A man who attacks makes millions of dollars attacking atheists but is unwilling to face them is a coward. He will not answer questions and he will not debate because he is smart enought to KNOW he will LOSE. The man is a fraud. - Erik

Erik, You must perceive Strobel as a threat to your position because he was similar to you in belief (or lack of) and then he went over to the other side; he made a complete turn around to come to faith in Christ. He has stated his case in his books so I think it is fair that he chooses to not debate. It is a personal choice. Come to think of it, even at the high level of Presidental candidates some choose not to go there. Why is this such an issue to you? Do you feel the atheists are put in a no=win situation? Would winning a debate make them true winners? Like Jerry states, what have the Christians to lose by believing? We win either way. - Janice

So it's ok for him to "state his case in books" and then run away like a little girl when challenged? Pretty strong faith you have there. - Erik

Erik, I do not think he would be capable of "running away like a little girl." I think you meant that somehow to be insulting but it just came across as rather silly to me, like LOL as another friend once said. Anyway, have you ever approached Strobel directly about wanting to debate? Maybe I should add respectfully approached him? - Janice

Janice- I am a nobody. There is no reason for him to debate me (although because I am not afraid of anyone, I would be glad to do so). I can't tell you how I know this- all I can tell you is that he has been approached for over a year now by respected persons in the skeptic community, has been given an open-ended invitation to debate anytime/anywhere, and he has either given no response or declined through his publicity people. The reasons they give is that his schedule is just too darn busy. So he has plenty of time to push his latest book but no time to answer any real questions or debate an expert. I'm not sure what you call that but he clearly has very little confidence in his positions. - Erik

Erik, First I have to say that you are somebody as is every other person on earth because we were all created in the image of God and He does not make nobodys. Your lack of belief in the existence of God may make you see yourself as a nobody but that is not reality. You are Erik and especially those who read these comments are convinced you are somebody. As for Mr.Strobel, I do not know his business but I think most authors who are successful in book sales are committed with their publisher to go on tour to promote their books so given that he might want to have some time with family on top of those responsibilities he very well may legitimately be booked to the brim and not have time to schedule a debate or he just may not want to debate for other reasons that we could not possibly know. Why don't you give him the benefit of the doubt instead of disparaging him? Who knows? Maybe next year he will be up for a debate. With his background I would imagine he would do a spectacular job just as would his opponents. But would the debate change anyone's mind? What is the result you are looking for from the debate? - Janice

Everyone looks for a hero, whether it is in a game, a book or a debate. Possible the man that the both of you are talking about does not wish to debate because he knows that it will not do anything but cause more confusion for both sides of the issue. This is a topic that has been discussed for many years and has not been won by either side. Christians must learn that we can discuss, debate and compare scriptures but the Bible should never be argued. When a believer and a nonbeliever tries to debate it will usually end in a argument. Even on this forum it ends in a way that is not usually good. We started out with intercessory prayer and now a mans career and reputation is being attacked and torn down. Eric is truly a well educated person as well as most of the other of you, but remember we are adults who need to conduct ourselves as such. I am sure there is a reason why the brother will not meet and debate with anyone and that is his option. He may be smart enough to know when to pick which battle to jump into. God Bless all. - Jerry

Janice: thanks for your nice comments. I initially did give him the benefit of the doubt, however I can't believe that in over a year's time he doesn't have one hour to address the skeptics and atheists.

Jerry: "the brother" won't debate us because he is very cowardly and has dog blood.
- Erik

Ha Ha Eric you do have a way with words, and right after Janice spoke well about you. - Jerry